If insufficient maps is the problem (however it arose), is the start window large enough to allow recycling, with late starters using second-hand maps from early finishers, for those who entered by the stated "entries close" date ?
... or even extra bagged non-waterproof home-printed laser maps ?
Not ideal, but perhaps better than nothing.
British Night Championship 2016
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
curro ergo sum
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King Penguin - guru
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
Ahhh.... I get it
British Orienteering is such a competitive recreation that using second hand maps in a National Championships is the way forward 


Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
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Gross - god
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
King Penguin wrote:If insufficient maps is the problem (however it arose), is the start window large enough to allow recycling, with late starters using second-hand maps from early finishers, for those who entered by the stated "entries close" date ?
... or even extra bagged non-waterproof home-printed laser maps ?
Not ideal, but perhaps better than nothing.
Sadly find myself agreeing with Gross here. Map quality is paramount on night orienteering - if its wet and you wear glasses a bagged map is significantly less readable than a waterproof paper litho map. If its a championship you shouldnt go there.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
Arnold wrote:Has there been any comment by the organiser or controller on this? Or BOF rules group?
The organiser has, so far, declined to respond to my e-mail asking for an explanation
and the planner, despite frequent visits to this site, has also failed to offer any explanation.
Ho-hum, maybe they think doing nothing will make it go away

- MIE
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
Agree that its not very polite to offer no explanation.
But one possibility is that they have decided to follow the rules - and in particular the requirement that no one starts before 18:55! Whether this is a reasonable rule (and should apply irrespective of whether forest or moorland; moon phase; forecast cloud cover etc) is a matter for debate - I think in 2015, on the same weekend, starts ran from about 18:30.
But if you follow that rule and still want to fit in the other requirements in a reasonable timescale, such as a prize-giving at say 22:00, it is understandable why they have limited the last start to around 20:15 and a maximum of 80 competitors per course.
But they should then have provided more courses (perhaps with some parallel courses in reserve pending entry numbers) so that everyone who wanted to enter could do so.
But one possibility is that they have decided to follow the rules - and in particular the requirement that no one starts before 18:55! Whether this is a reasonable rule (and should apply irrespective of whether forest or moorland; moon phase; forecast cloud cover etc) is a matter for debate - I think in 2015, on the same weekend, starts ran from about 18:30.
But if you follow that rule and still want to fit in the other requirements in a reasonable timescale, such as a prize-giving at say 22:00, it is understandable why they have limited the last start to around 20:15 and a maximum of 80 competitors per course.
But they should then have provided more courses (perhaps with some parallel courses in reserve pending entry numbers) so that everyone who wanted to enter could do so.
- Snail
- diehard
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
MIE wrote:...and the planner, despite frequent visits to this site, has also failed to offer any explanation.
Ho-hum, maybe they think doing nothing will make it go away
Yes the planner may have been (and still is) a frequent visitor to nopesport, but that doesn't necessarily mean I feel obliged to comment on every post. Particularly when people are questioning the organising of an event - as you are aware I am the planner not organiser.
There are a number of reasons why this event is in the position we are in, and in isolation some of those decisions may seem unfair or unreasonable to some that are affected, but in the end there has been far more competitors than expected and this led to running out of start slots and/or low on map numbers.
As has been mentioned by others already, to ensure the best map quality was available, these have been offset litho printed by professional printers. The lead time for this process meant that map numbers were already in situ sometime prior to closing entries. Yes based upon numbers at that time and based upon previous events, numbers were higher than normal - yet we still couldn't expect this to be near 147% of our original estimate. It's not just a question of 'knocking' off a few more maps off the club printer. Yes we could have ensured we only went to print once entries had closed - this would have brought the closing date forward by a week - not just the 4-5hrs as was the case. This action would have prevented even more 'late entry' competitors from having the run that they currently have. There were significant entries in the last week.
In the end it's keeping entries open as long as possible - but at the risk of reaching limits already set by other parts of the event process.
Did my encouragement during the last week of entries/closing day make this situation worse - possibly, but without knowing what influences those late entries to be made, we don't know. Following comments made by others on the Midland Champs thread, I thought a gentle reminder would be helpful. Had I not, then entries may have been down and we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
Comments have also raised the idea of split courses/classes - maybe, yes this could have been considered had everyone who wants to run, entered in plenty of time and by this I mean weeks before closing, not in the last few hours. As I have already stated, entries were far greater than previous years and this had not been expected.
Unlike other major events, we cant just alter the time slots. This is a NIGHT event, we cant move the slots forward into daylight, but we also have to be reasonable about the time courses close and we can wrap up the event, not just for competitors - but also those hardworking volunteers who would like to get home that night.
At the end of the day - this event has been open for many weeks and months and in the end the entries only closed a few hours earlier than expected and this was due to significant demand. Whats done is done - yes, lessons may be learnt and constructive feedback is welcomed, but the reality is entries have closed, start times have been issued and maps have been printed.
All we want now is a pleasant evening's weather so that those running have a safe enjoyable run. Good luck to those competing and if you have any comments/feedback on your courses - I'm sure I will hear, here in this forum!!

NB: The views here are my personal views and do not necessarily reflect those of the BNC 2016 event team or other officials.
- SteveE
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
Snail wrote:But one possibility is that they have decided to follow the rules - and in particular the requirement that no one starts before 18:55! Whether this is a reasonable rule (and should apply irrespective of whether forest or moorland; moon phase; forecast cloud cover etc) is a matter for debate - I think in 2015, on the same weekend, starts ran from about 18:30.
As the originator of the rule - and someone who has twice benefited from an early "twilight" start at BNC - I obviously think it's a reasonable one. More to the point it gives the organiser an actual way of deciding when the first start should be, rather than picking an arbitrary length of time after sunset and hoping for the best.
The idea is mainly to avoid the situation we've had in recent years where the organisers have realised in the week before the race that they need to move the start times back by 30 minutes...
An 80-minute start window should be adequate for BNC, although it may mean you need four courses instead of three in the M45/W21 to M65/W50 range if entry numbers are as high as they are this year (and I appreciate that that can be difficult to predict). As the rules say, "Although classes may be combined onto the courses as shown this is not mandatory, particularly if it leads to overloading".
I do have sympathy with the organisers - no doubt they would also be criticised if they had closed entries back before the litho printing deadline. Perhaps the best option in this sort of situation is to warn people of the risk in the advance details: "entries will close on x, but map numbers will go to the printers y days before that, so enter by z if you want to be sure of a place on your preferred course".
That said, I am a bit surprised/disappointed if there was no student discount for a British Championship

"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
SteveE wrote:Comments have also raised the idea of split courses/classes - maybe, yes this could have been considered had everyone who wants to run, entered in plenty of time and by this I mean weeks before closing, not in the last few hours.
Isn't it usually the case with any event that a lot of people, for whatever reason, enter just before the deadline - so if entries had closed earlier, the rush might have come earlier?
- roadrunner
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
An unfortunate aspect of the system of map allocation for the BNC this year is that it has ended up treating our elite men and elite women differently. All of the maps printed for course one were reserved for M21L. Had this course become full then it would have been straightforward to bump off the lowest ranked runners.
However, on course three, no maps were reserved for W21L. In fact, the vast majority of maps went to M45 and M50 runners and, as a result, W21 runners ended up being excluded from the event.
I guess this doesn’t feel entirely fair or OK in 2016.
However, on course three, no maps were reserved for W21L. In fact, the vast majority of maps went to M45 and M50 runners and, as a result, W21 runners ended up being excluded from the event.
I guess this doesn’t feel entirely fair or OK in 2016.
- RobL
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
I do have sympathy with the organisers - no doubt they would also be criticised if they had closed entries back before the litho printing deadline. Perhaps the best option in this sort of situation is to warn people of the risk in the advance details: "entries will close on x, but map numbers will go to the printers y days before that, so enter by z if you want to be sure of a place on your preferred course".
What is the problem with having the closing date before the maps go to the printers? You can then offer late entries subject to availability of maps and start times. Anyone entering on time gets what they ask for. If you are late entering then you have no complaint if all of the start times / maps on your course have gone.
- SJC
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
roadrunner wrote:Isn't it usually the case with any event that a lot of people, for whatever reason, enter just before the deadline - so if entries had closed earlier, the rush might have come earlier?
Both Fabian4 and SI must be sitting on a huge pot of data on entry patterns for different types and sizes of events organised by different clubs at different times of year with different entry fees and closing dates... There's a nice little regression problem in there for an enterprising entries system to come up with a proprietary model that would allow them to offer, as part of their service, a prediction of likely final entries based on numbers at an earlier date.
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
SJC wrote:What is the problem with having the closing date before the maps go to the printers? You can then offer late entries subject to availability of maps and start times. Anyone entering on time gets what they ask for. If you are late entering then you have no complaint if all of the start times / maps on your course have gone.
Yes, I think that's basically what I was suggesting, just worded in a different way. To me closing date means "absolutely no more (pre-)entries after this date"; if you're continuing to accept entries after it, it's not a closing date. But that really is just semantics.
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
SteveE wrote:
Unlike other major events, we cant just alter the time slots. This is a NIGHT event, we cant move the slots forward into daylight
Couldn't it be moved to earlier in the year to solve this problem?
- Gnitworp
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
[/quote]What is the problem with having the closing date before the maps go to the printers? You can then offer late entries subject to availability of maps and start times. Anyone entering on time gets what they ask for. If you are late entering then you have no complaint if all of the start times / maps on your course have gone.[/quote]
Wot he said
Wot he said
- mykind
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Re: British Night Championship 2016
RobL wrote:However, on course three, no maps were reserved for W21L. In fact, the vast majority of maps went to M45 and M50 runners and, as a result, W21 runners ended up being excluded from the event.
Even at this late stage, would it be possible for some M45/M50's to volunteer for a club laser printed version and donate their 'proper' map to W21's?
M/W21's are more important than vets at a national competition IMHO. Also there will be people like me who run M45/50 at least 30 mins behind the winner, so loosing 30 seconds on a poorer quality map is insignificant. *
- SeanC
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