JWOC/EYOC selections

[DIDSCO]

Where is the evidence that competing internationally at 16 years old is a bad thing?
All the 16 year olds I know personally that have competed internationally in at least 10 different sports -inc major olympic sports like boxing, athletics, triathlon, ice-hockey, figure skating, sailing, have come back from races with good and bad results, but every single one of them has come back inspired, experience in the bank, and ready to push themselves to the next level.
Just last week one of my 16 year olds came back from international duty, and was all inspired after eating breakfast with an olympic medallist from London.
Bolt, Farah, Messi, Ronaldo were all gaining international experience by the age of 16. Whats the big deal? Kids love to race, they've got loads of enthusiasm, give them a chance.

In British orienteering the message they're sending out just now is that the 'management' and 'coaches' are scared of our kids producing poor results effecting the funding that pays their wages, and that they don't feel they're properly trained/equiped to coach our best 16 year olds at international orienteering races.

[harry]

Yeah fair enough. I actually agree to some extent with everything graeme and DIDSCO wrote in the last two posts. Especially the stuff about how SEDS is working so well.

I guess the point -right now- is that British Orienteering are basically being honest, that in an ideal World they maybe would want to give the 16 year olds international experience through EYOC but they are ill equipped to provide that experience for them based on the resources they currently have.

Maybe they just don't want to half-ass it. They don't want kids running round at World Schools age 13 with older athletes trying to get them into drinking vodka (Estonia 1995) or a coach without much coach education (and underdeveloped interpersonal skills) telling a 16 year old they've let him down by doing a bad race. Btw: that coach was an excellent coach in other ways and contributed to some of GB's best ever results.

All the half-ass experiences I had back in those days did not really put me off but you can't say it was ever super 'professional' either. Including being coached by DIDSCO with some unconventional coaching methods. But times have changed there is more accountability / red tape now. You need a swimming certificate nowadays even to swim in a lake on a tour, maybe you need another certificate for naked streaking races into a lake. ?? This stuff all increases the 'cost' of taking kids away to compete / train. Like graeme said: Don't blame the people blame the structure. Likewise don't blame British Orienteering, blame the structure above them: the people / paperwork etc that they have to answer to. Maybe it's best to just assume that everyone is doing the best they can even if you don't think their best is as good as in Swedish figure skating. (f. eks.)

[awk]

Awk - do you mean the English education system or have you knowledge of the Scottish education system (very different beast) as well?

I was meaning British, but in hindsight should have stuck to saying English, as that's the only one I have direct knowledge of. I should know better than to rely on second hand knowledge, from what others who have worked in the Scottish/Welsh systems tell me (and I know nothing about Northern Ireland, so double whoopsy!). I'm more than prepared to admit I got that one wrong!

Even from what I do know, I do agree that they are very different beasts too.

[harry]

I would like to raise one more point because I think that my main viewpoint got lost and/or was not fully/ properly expressed in amongst all the other alternative ideas and opinions that I have .

Nopesport is used by a small vocal minority.
You are clearly very passionate about orienteering and that is great.

I would just like you to apply some caution when you post on here and when you lobby the governing body.

However strongly you may feel about juniors getting international racing experience, I think that I can speak for most of the athletes when I say: it has not been a positive development that we have had no Performance Manager in post and no continuity in the Performance programme since last summer.

People have limits. It is good that we have an independent forum for discussion but nopesport was not designed as a place where people could gather and combine their energy to then drive people from their jobs. -Some rebelliousness was involved sure but the intentions were always overall more positive, using it for building things rather than tearing them down....

Maybe everyone should try to be open minded about the potential competence of the people running YOUR governing body. I believe it was a good thing that 6 British junior women had the chance to race at JWOC 2014 but the manner it was achieved by the loud vocal minority also resulted in our Performance Programme losing 6 - 8 months + of momentum. The 'chaos' that you (we*) all complain about on nopesport is partly caused by your loudness. Some of the top athletes in the senior team feel hugely let down by the governing body but things were actually working OK up til JWOCgate. Far from perfect but OK.

*I have also previosly expressed my frustration with the governing body but that was actually triggered by another more personal unrelated issue.

My comments on this thread were largely motivated by me trying to defend a decision that has been taken by people trying to do their job. (And by my dislike for the negativity being expressed instead of people taking positive action: I have now taken some positive action to try to help our young athletes, see other thread about the Junior Exchange Programme I am setting up).

Having said all that I still stand by everything I have written in the above thread even my alternative viewpoint about 16s and EYOC.

Helen Palmer

[BenM]

...but the manner it was achieved by... ...also resulted in our Performance Programme losing 6 - 8 months + of momentum.

Last time I checked, the manner it was achieved by was exactly how British Orienteering wanted it to be. Rather than endless moaning here, official policies and protocols were followed to the t. This merely highlighted in 2500 words, the wrongdoings on BOFs part which led to JWOCgate. Accusations of this being an inappropriate manner is frankly ridiculous. It was in fact, the only appropriate manner. Policies are there to be followed.

[daffdy]

...but the manner it was achieved by... ...also resulted in our Performance Programme losing 6 - 8 months + of momentum.

Last time I checked, the manner it was achieved by was exactly how British Orienteering wanted it to be. Rather than endless moaning here, official policies and protocols were followed to the t. This merely highlighted in 2500 words, the wrongdoings on BOFs part which led to JWOCgate. Accusations of this being an inappropriate manner is frankly ridiculous. It was in fact, the only appropriate manner. Policies are there to be followed.

This is actually really important - ranting anonymously on the interweb can certainly be good for your sanity in some situations, but at some point anonymous ranty people need to turn into British Orienteering members engaging constructively with their national governing body to enable any sort of progress to be made. It's not surprising that appealing the selections turned out to be the best way to appeal the selections.

[graeme]

It's not surprising that appealing the selections turned out to be the best way to appeal the selections.

Well, it turned out to be the way for the person who appealed to get nowhere and the anonymous ranty people to get what they wanted. And it completely undermined Sarah, who promptly quit and therefore...

...resulted in our Performance Programme losing 6 - 8 months + of momentum.

I guess you have a different definition of "best" to me.

Graeme Ackland, INT, non-anonymous, BOF member since 1984

[BenM]

Graeme, that is just wrong on numerous levels.

I didn't undermine anyone, their own actions which broke their own selection policies did the undermining. I merely, privately, pointed this out.

I got somewhere.

If the programme lost momentum that was built on ignoring policies, that's probably a good thing.

To conclude, you don't know me, you don't know what actually happened and none of us here know (or can discuss) the circumstances around the staff changes at BOF.

[harry]

It is perfectly acceptable to disagree with things / people.
It is perfectly acceptable to appeal against things you disagree with.

I personally have disagreed with several selection decisions over the years but I have never appealed any because of the (irritatingly) clever, broad / general way selection policies are written. The selection decisions that I disagreed with went against my interpretation of the selection policy. My interpretation is generally that if you finish top 2 in named selection races and there are 3 spots available then you are fine -but this interpretation has not always been the interpretation of the selectors.

But that is a ranty aside based on some hints of residual bitterness about events of the distant past... have been several occasions when I have felt 'screwed over' by the selectors and also a few times when my selection was not at all clearcut and I got lucky / the benefit of the doubt.


... Anyway appealing and following procedures is perfectly fine. The problem is black and white thinking about these issues. We have to look past our own point of view and see the bigger picture. My point is that Sarah experienced repeated adversive stimuli to the point where it was no longer worthwhile for her staying in the job. She reached her limit. You might say that she was pushed to her limit ... But that is just my interpretation.

My intention is not to attack anyone here..(besides I am so out of the loop I would not have any idea who to attack) What's done is done. Gjort er gjort og spist er spist. As we say. My point is just that we should learn from the past. Here we have a new performance manager in post making decisions the best she can based on lots of information (some of which we are not aware of). I just don't think people should be so quick to question these decisions at least not so aggressively.

Eyoc at 16 would be great for some & maybe not so great for others. BO have said they aren't going to take 16s. The best response to that for a 16 is to go 'Oh that's a shame.. Where else can I learn stuff?.. Ok cool let's try that.. I will do that other cool thing instead, enjoy that, work on getting better and come back to the eyoc/ jwoc thing later'

It's not that easy to move your disappointment towards that kind of chilled healthy reaction when all the adults are going "BUT THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS and BO ARE USELESS!"
-Seriously there will be plenty of chances for kids to develop distrust & resentment later on.. Don't plant the seeds too early...

These are just my opinions based on lots of years in the system..... whilst sometimes dealing with the strong reactions of passionate parents... some of whom may carry along their own anti-selector baggage from another sport. !! Selectors are people too and things are shades of grey. Chill. If you work hard some opportunities will probably arise. (and then you will have whole new sets of problems / people to deal with )

Helen Palmer

[graeme]

To conclude, you don't know me, you don't know what actually happened and none of us here know (or can discuss) the circumstances around the staff changes at BOF.

And yet, I explained what the outcome of this protest I couldn't know about would be, before BOF even decided on it. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14234&p=160264&hilit=coconut#p160264

I didn't undermine anyone,

Indeed, that's why I said "it" (the whole process) not "you". I don't believe for a moment you were responsible for any of this.

What happens next is BOF will back Jackie, there will be no 16s at EYOC, and Helen will get picked for WOC. Sure, I can't possibly know that, but I do already have lots of coconuts .

[PhilJ]

Eyoc at 16 would be great for some & maybe not so great for others. BO have said they aren't going to take 16s.

Or maybe they will if you read the BO website?

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/page/gbprogramme as it states
"•European Youth Orienteering Championship – (age classes 16 & 18): Competing at EYOC is a major step up in competitive orienteering for young athletes and is a great opportunity for staff to assess athletes’ performances and establish, confirm or modify personal development plans"

[harry]

Graeme: 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Even if it was physically possible to make any team I probably too honest about my allergies / sensitivities to be considered this year. Good luck to you all and peace out. X

[graeme]

Was I talking about you?

[harry]

Bridle & Winskill are definitely contenders. Watch out. We can all push our zimmer frames pretty fast & in the right direction.

[graeme]

As some sort of pre-election boondoggle, the Scottish exec has some extra funding for Scots sports teams, and the SOA has spotted the opportunity to send a fully funded M/W16 team to EYOC. The bid is approved thanks to our commitment to bring JEC to Scotland next year. The Romanians are OK with this, although we won't be able to mix and match in the relays teams. May get interesting if any of the Scots 16s gets selected for the self-pay GB team.

Selection details to follow.