Clubs - too territorial?

[SeanC]

This is a bit off topic from the region thread, so I thought I'd start a new one.

Graeme said:

A structure where the regions hold the areas and the clubs have the people might work well. Compared with most sports the current non-overlapping club structure is very rigid, because any new club would be unviable without areas. As we saw in another thread, if club members find themselves at odds with their club's ethos, there's no easy option to move to a different club.

How would you feel if we ended club territories? For example any club could ask the (relevant regional mapping person / open access computer system) for a map of any area and organise an event there (subject to it not being used that day by any other club). The event pays a levy for future remapping, but is expected to add any minor updates for free. The regional map supremo/committee etc, decides the best way to allocate the remapping money. Clubs could openly compete with each other if they choose, eg a new club aimed at a different demographic could start in your area.

Lots of negatives coming soon below I'm sure, but I can see some positives.

We, like many clubs, have various mapped areas that we don't use, particularly in the Croydon area. Maybe neighbours SLOW might want to use them for local events. Of course they could ask now and I'm sure we'd say yes, but that's a bit of a barrier, the various committee contacts add months which isn't what you want if organising a local event next month for 20 people starting in a pub.

Another problem is area under use. Currently we organise events in places like Crystal Palace and Greenwich Park about once a year. But someone might want to start a club where they organise an event in one of these parks every month or every week. These popular London parks could get stacks of newcomers if done right. Again my club would probably be OK with this, but we all know orienteers who worry about "area overuse" if this becomes the norm.

Having a regional mapping fund could help with regional inequalities, the popular areas/maps could help fund maps in the more peripheral areas.

Some of you probably think I've gone barking mad, but I must admit I get the have you gone mad look when I explain this aspect of orienteering culture to non-orienteers.

[Snail]

Absolutely.

From the other thread:

As we saw in another thread, if club members find themselves at odds with their club's ethos, there's no easy option to move to a different club.

This varies - although true in many areas, there are also areas where two or more clubs are roughly equidistant. And even parts of the country where a 10 mile radius could cover five clubs, and where mapped areas are interspersed. This is good if you need to change clubs, but less good for achieving a cohesive club-community 'identity' as two people from the same street can end up in different clubs according to who hosts the first event they go to!

I have tried to suggest that some clubs swap areas, so that they have a better defined catchment area and over the long-term should be able to develop better community links. But the idea was dismissed out of hand, by most people I spoke to in both clubs.

[Sunlit Forres]

We share maps with INVOC quite happily. We actually have about 30 members living in INVOC's catchment area but it doesn't greatly matter who's in which club as we all go to each others' events anyway. We jointly staged the Moray & Highland Junior Champs and not that long ago we put on an event at Carse Wood (a Moray 2013 S6D area).

We've even given INVOC 14 seats on our coach to the Jamie Stevenson Trophy.

[frog]

In Scotland I've not found there to be a rigid geographical club structure. I stuck with Tay even when I moved to KFO land (I think I was on the committee at the time and my new home was as near to committee meetings as my old one had been just in a different direction.). My city also has ESOC members in it and I know people live in Tayside who have chosen to stay/ join other clubs.
Are things more rigid in England? No-one seems to care here, although I suspect smaller clubs like KFO lose out with folk like me staying with their larger but not very big really clubs.

[mappingmum]

How would you feel if we ended club territories? For example any club could ask the (relevant regional mapping person / open access computer system) for a map of any area and organise an event there (subject to it not being used that day by any other club).

In my experience club territories don't exist. There may be some guidance that says a club "owns" or has first call on mapping their area but in practice this is not enforceable. What about non-territorial clubs eg BAOC for example.

Can I suggest it would actually be in the interests of the development of the sport, imo, if people were mandated to join their local club. This would help spread expertise, experience, best practice and may facilitate personal improvement.

[SeanC]

I can see your point but it depends what a club is for. If clubs are about putting on local events, territories and encouraging/forcing everyone to join their local club makes sense as it increases the pool of potential volunteers. But for competing this often doesn't make sense. Many clubs don't have a critical mass of either younger adults or juniors. Newcomers tend to join their local club after a few local events. But if this local club doesn't have what's needed for these groups, the chances are they won't last long. I've seen this happen many times. In many cases they would have been better off at a neighbouring club.

Just to go back to Graeme's point though, there is in effect territories defined by club mappers because clubs own the maps. At the margins there is some overlap, and many clubs loan at the margins. Some clubs work really well together, but imagine this scenario:

10 ex uni orienteers move to RandomUKCity. They want to set up their own club suited more to the under 40's. They want to use the 6 areas in and around RandomUKCity for events and coaching every week. 2 areas are championship/regional/badge areas, 2 are used for level C and local events, 2 aren't used at all. A new club would face start up costs for kit, but many regions have SI kit hire and grants are a possibility, but nothing happens without the areas. Would a typical UK club give complete and unrestricted access to their maps in this scenario? Please discuss....

[roadrunner]

Can I suggest it would actually be in the interests of the development of the sport, imo, if people were mandated to join their local club. This would help spread expertise, experience, best practice and may facilitate personal improvement.

The problem I can see here is if there's a personality clash or similar with people in the local club, as was mentioned in another recent thread. Better to be able join another club (if there's a suitable one) than have to leave the sport altogether.

[andypat]

Tend to agree with Roadrunner. I dont think we (particularly the SOA)need any more barriers to joining up, which would be the case if limiting which club you can join.

[graeme]

Would a typical UK club give complete and unrestricted access to their maps in this scenario? Please discuss....

Possible not. But I think they should, and for precisely this reason, I keep personal copyright on the maps I make.

Another interesting question: pretty much all clubs were set up by 10 ex uni orienteers to cater for the under 40s. In most sports, a club's remit doesn't change much over time. What happened?

[Red Adder]

Its interesting to hear the Graeme retains the copyright of the maps he produces.

Certainly not a problem if he takes no fees or expenses and doesn't use club resources (eg surveying equipment / OCAD / other members time as assistants) in producing the map. Otherwise an "interesting" situation could arise as I wouldn't be surprised that a club, having paid expenses etc and without any formal statement otherwise, would assume they then owned the map and would be therefore be a tad miffed if the mapper announced that it was his ball and he was now going to let club B, C D etc play with it.

I personally vest copyright with of the map with my club (or whoever has paid me for commercial work). This is not to imply any criticism of Graeme's stance, just me taking a different position.

[graeme]

Certainly not a problem if he takes no fees or expenses and doesn't use club resources (eg surveying equipment / OCAD / other members time as assistants) in producing the map.

Which I don't. I only ask that if clubs use the maps and find mistakes, they let me know.
I even have copyright on a map in New Jersey (used by HVO and DVOA) which I ran on today .

[madmike]

What about non-territorial clubs eg BAOC for example.

BAOC and RAFO are both affiliated to a Regional Association (SCOA and EA respectively). However, their individual members can chose their regional association, which is normally the area in which the member resides or in my case a member of the regional association to which my open club is affiliated.