Is traditional orienteering dying?

[sketchweppers]

I was thinking today that the turnout at today's level C event at Limpsfield Chart wasn't that great considering the glorious weather and top quality area. My club keeps results on the website going back to 2001 so I checked the long term trend, and it seems that the declining trend for this area at least is only gradual.

Here's the attendances at events at Westerham/Limpsfield Chart for level C events and equivalent events (district events in the past).

Dec 02: 200
Dec 03: 250
Mar 07: 150
Mar 10: 195
Mar 14: 170

Is this enough information to go on? It could be that there are more events on, and that some people are going to a different event. There is no information about the distance to next closest event. It could be that the total number of people orienteering in the whole country per weekend is actually staying about the same or even increasing.

[Sunlit Forres]

Moravian often advertise a 'guaranteed entry' closing date 5 clear working days ahead of the event. Maps for the technical courses (where one might expect competitors to know to pre-enter) are ordered based on entry numbers at that date, also taking attendance at previous years' events in to account. Anyone entering by then is guaranteed a run on the course of their choice.

Entries are then re-opened until the Friday night before the event, with the number of spare maps for each course shown on the event details on the club's web site. Lots of maps are always ordered for the easier courses, with the club prepared to take the financial hit for any over-ordering in the interests of not disappointing any newcomers.

[Paul Frost]

Being pre-aware of entry numbers is very helpful for organisers, event at level D events or activities.
How many maps to print is the most obvious, but parking could also be an issue.

One of the "advantages" in the past was that blank maps were printed in bulk and this meant competitors had the benefit of kneeling down on the wet and muddy ground (sometimes in the rain) and drawing their course on a map with a dodgy pen whilst pushing and shoving for a closer view of the master map. They could also modify the map to take into account changes since the map was printed. This had the added benefit that beginners tended to make mistakes in the copying and then got lost in the forest when the control wasn't where they had marked it. This enhanced their enjoyment so much they kept coming back to repeat the process.

Unfortunately now they get a nice clean pre-printed map, which should have been updated recently, so they are robbed of the "advantages" listed above and can only concentrate on finding the controls.

I personally don't want to go back to the "good old days" and I'm sure the sport would be even less attractive to beginners or the more casual orienteers.

There shouldn't be any need to know the numbers way in advance if clubs are printing their own maps at smaller events, and a week should be enough for commercial printers.

Orienteering by it's nature tends to need advanced planning to attend, even local events will need travelling to, and the time involved is much more than just the 40-60 minutes you are out running for. So you are not likely to wake up Sunday morning and suddenly decide to "pop in" to an orienteering event on the way to the shops or whatever other activity has priority over orienteering. Which is probably one of the reasons why we struggle to attract newcomers to traditional orienteering.

A pre-defined activity time, showers, cafe, very short travelling distance and public transport availability may be more attractive and easy to fit in with other things, but those requirements are not going to be possible at a location that will deliver the challenge I got involved in orienteering for. I do enjoy urban events based at schools etc. with all the facilities, but only in addition to the "traditional".

[SeanC]

i can see justification for pre-entries and closing dates at level B and of course level A. But for your regular Sunday morning level C fixtures is this really necessary ?

Down our way the level C event is a notch above the regular event. We only do 1 level C and 1 level B per year normally. There are 5 X Kent orienteering league events (high quality local events) on a Saturday, + 7 more informal Saturday score events + a few other local events. Only the level C and B's are pre-entry.

We were one of the first clubs to start doing pre-entries on level C events that were former district events. The feeling was rather than decreasing attendance, it increased attendance because the fabian4 list acted as additional advertising. There may have been the perception of improved quality with pre-entry?

I think EOD and late entries were both £1 extra. Pre-entry is kept open till the Friday before the event. I doubt whether the £1 extra is a significant deterrant. The risk of a map not being available is potentially, but that would be the case if we had all EOD on the day, probably more so as attendance would be more unpredictable.

Is this enough information to go on?

Absolutely not Statistically not enough to prove a trend, yet alone to prove the cause. It is at least the same area and same club, so of some value. Perhaps if others could post similar statistics it would at least confirm or deny a trend.

[greywolf]

FWIW (i.e. very little) BOF rules say Level C = "Entry on the day with pre entry where appropriate" which I'd understand to mean that EOD should always be possible, with pre entry available if the club found it useful.
The main advantage with pre-entry is that it ought to reduce the load on registration - although I note that at an upcoming event we're all expected to report to registration anyway. Maybe it helps with map numbers - but it almost always pays to overestimate as 1 lost entry costs as much as ~10 unused maps.

So you are not likely to wake up Sunday morning and suddenly decide to "pop in" to an orienteering event

Perhaps - but pre-entry also requires you to pick which course you're going to run, and that's a decision (at most Level C events, anyway) that I'd like to make depending on how I feel that morning

[DaveK]

We were one of the first clubs to start doing pre-entries on level C events that were former district events. The feeling was rather than decreasing attendance, it increased attendance because the fabian4 list acted as additional advertising. There may have been the perception of improved quality with pre-entry?

Yes, I agree SeanC that this does appear to be something of an outcome; additional 'advertising' on Fabian4 and the suggestion of something 'a bit better', does seem to push the number of (pre) entries up. As long as the 'turn up and go entrants' are catered for this seems to be a reasonable approach (at least for us down in the south-east).

[cbg]

Perhaps - but pre-entry also requires you to pick which course you're going to run, and that's a decision (at most Level C events, anyway) that I'd like to make depending on how I feel that morning

I don't suppose many clubs hosting a Level C event would object to you arriving reasonably early on the morning and asking to change your X Course for Y; one more spare map on X for one less on Y (assuming that's still available), with a bit of Registration work for free. Doesn't seem too difficult to me.

After a few seasons they might even expect you to do so!

[Clive Coles]

Of course the problem we face in this forum is that those who blog tend to be the people who turn up and pre-enter when ever the option is provided. But we somehow need to get some feedback from those who seem to be dropping out of the sport. Sadly they are unlikely to even look at nopesport to find out that this subject is even being discussed . So the causes of any decline can only be one for cogitation by a different group of the more committed orienteers.

[roadrunner]

Of course the problem we face in this forum is that those who blog tend to be the people who turn up and pre-enter when ever the option is provided.

Really? I've seen several posts on here from people saying they don't want to pre-enter (or at least, to pre-enter early) in case they happen to be ill/injured when the event happens, etc. Strangely, I never come across that in road-running; people seem to accept the need for entering events early and take the risk of losing their money sometimes if they're unable to participate for some reason.

[Paul Frost]

...with a bit of Registration work for free.

Nothing is free, that little bit of extra registration work has to be done by someone, they may be a volunteer but they could be doing another job instead.

We often forget that a volunteers time has a value/cost and is not unlimited, and that should be taken into account when we make decisions that might require extra manpower.

[Clive Coles]

Misunderstood me Roadrunner ~ what I was meaning to convey was the thought that the very people who are no longer bothering to turn out at level C events , are probably more likely to be the ones who don't follow nopesport. The challenge is to find out why they appear to be dropping out of orienteering. Nothing we talk about on this forum is likly to change the attitude of the less committed.

[SeanC]

That's true, but I really don't think the way DFOK and many other clubs do pre-entry on level C events is a factor. If anything it's easier to enter on the day now. No long queues at registration. Helpers at registration have time to chat and help rather than process the queue of impatient regulars.

Much of this is about communication. Sometimes event fliers are too terse. A comment "pre-entry preferred" might be off putting to some. Something like "Pre-entry will help our admin and predict map numbers, but please to enter on the day if it suits" is more welcoming.

[Red Adder]

Pre-entry has alway been one of my least favourite things in the Sport, and when I see a CAT C event with pre-entry that is already £ 2 above the regional norm - the EOD surcharge is a further £ 2 on top of that I immediately know that is an event I won't bother with. The club may well have costs (eg per capita land access fee) that has forced the situation but for me this isn't the way to encourage participation.

[Paul Frost]

Pre-entry has alway been one of my least favourite things in the Sport

Apart from Parkrun, most running races and triathlons request pre-entry for anything other than a very local event. So orienteering isn't alone here.
As has already been pointed out, pre-entry generally saves manpower on the day, so think about the volunteers putting on the event and how you are helping them by pre-entering.

when I see a CAT C event with pre-entry that is already £ 2 above the regional norm - the EOD surcharge is a further £ 2 on top of that I immediately know that is an event I won't bother with. The club may well have costs (eg per capita land access fee) that has forced the situation but for me this isn't the way to encourage participation.

Not all level C events are equal, so you can't judge them solely on the fees. What is the alternative?
If a club can't put on an event for less than the arbitrary level you have set due to costs outside their control, are you saying:
a) they shouldn't put it on?
b) they should lower the fees and make a loss?
c) they should put it on anyway and hope that most people don't take your view and still enter?

None of the above are likely to result in clubs putting on more events, mapping new areas, or buying new timing kit, so gradually the number of events available will reduce and the sport dies.

Our sport is not cheap to put on:
A new map could cost anywhere between £1000-£6000 or more and need updating within 2 years.
A basic electronic timing set is £6000+
Map printing, planners travelling costs, land access and other fees, toilet hire etc.

We must stop comparing orienteering with other sports and events that don't have these sorts of overheads. If you can't afford to take part in a particular sport you find a cheaper one (good luck with that), you don't demand that the cost is reduced to suit your pocket.

[SeanC]

Agree with all of that Paul.

Where I have some sympathy with Clive and RedAdder is when clubs put on their fliers "EOD subject to map availability". If I'm EODing I dread those words. These can translate to "you might have to run a course that's much to short/long" or "you might have to stand around like a lemon hoping someone reluctantly gives up their map after their run so you can use their creased, sweaty* and muddy offering". That does put me off going.

If clubs do EOD, they should do it properly, print enough maps and advertise the fact. In the DFOK flier for Sunday's event it said something reassuring like "we are printing plenty of maps for those entering on the day, we do not expect to run out of maps". I think that's something other clubs should copy**.

Alternatively if clubs really don't want to do EOD to reduce volunteer time or for any other reason, that position will be respected by nearly everyone. Somewhere in the middle helps no-one in the long run IMHO.

The Moravian approach is interesting, and also you know what you're getting before committing your day if I understood that right.

RedAdder/Clive. It's all mainly Level C's at the weekends down your way. Could SUFFOC/SOS, maybe HAVOC one day get together and get yourself an Essex/South Suffolk/A12 level D weekend orienteering league going one day? With all those juniors and a reasonable number of seniors in your area it could be at least as successful as the Kent Orienteering League for example (cost = £5/£3 = cheaper than level C's and of course EOD only. )

* or worse
** I know DFOK events have run out of maps in the past.