World Cup Round 1

[Arnold]

Whatever happened to touch-free emit (or si)? Surely for sprint races that is the answer?
(Assuming it works of course but I haven't heard anything to the contrary)

[Jagge]

It may sound strange, but for fairness reasons athletes should not get any signal/beep/sound or other confirmation of positive registration. That's where most systems (or the way systems are usually used) fail.

[andypat]

It may sound strange, but for fairness reasons athletes should not get any signal/beep/sound or other confirmation of positive registration. That's where most systems (or the way systems are usually used) fail.

That does sound strange Jagge and not immediately obvious what you mean by "fairness reasons". Why is it fair for the athlete not to get a beep, then to DQ him/her for failing to punch properly?

[Jagge]

Equipment will fail and planners will make mistakes. For example if unit malfunctions, runs out of battery or planner forgets to wake up them (first runner has to use couple of seconds at each control to wake them up), some runners get affected and some not. Some has to pin punch and some not, pretending it is fair is just lame. If athletes have no idea are they getting registered or not they will run as usual, no matter is gear dead or not. And if finish gear works there will be finish time and that time will be correct, not affected by any gear failures. Then if there is punches missing it's question about rules and common sense to judge what should be done. For example if there is dead unit, planner can go to forest and replace it for the last runners. There is no way to know a unit is dead, so you can't guess it and skip it. You can't disqualify runner for punching with a dead unit if there is no way of knowing it is dead. I personally believe implementing common sense and judgement much more than gear being 100% perfect.

If you ask me, for elite races the way to do it would be using touch free gear (Si air/emit tag) to register athlete has been there within couple of meter or so. And normal touch gear (or an other touch free gear registering within 50 cm) to makes sure they can't just run by. So if one tries to punch properly it will take him so close the "touch-free" will register easily. Then just have rule it is allowed to have two missing "touch punches" (touch free should be found for those controls), third missing would be DQ. And if there is broken gear in forest those controls would not count, because all gear would be silent (no signals what so ever for athlete to see or hear). Like this one unlucky unfocused punch would not DQ you, but systematic speed punching would. And runner's times would not be affected by dead or units still in sleep mode.
And because units are silent it would be organizers headache to figure out what to do if something really fatal happens. Latest big failure I know was Ski-O world cup in Finland this winter, some athletes had big difficulties in getting signal and lost minutes for it. There was gps tracking and it was obvious they were there, but race was voided because finish times were so much affected. With silent devices they could have just made different decision, like Q only those who did not visit control. NO one would have known units are not working so they would have punched as usual.

If you can find it somewhere, take a look at WOC relay 2011, Marianne A punching at last leg's last control. Waiting and waiting and if I remember right punching with an other unit. The other girls were long gone and medal chances gone for not getting signal as fast as the other girls.

But I know people are so fond of beeps and blinks to make any of this ever actually happen, even if the gear is already there.

[EddieH]

If you are to use touch free in sprint races the planners can not then put controls beside forbidden to cross features as time will record whichever side you are on.

[andypat]

That's depend how wide the feature is... but planning guidelines suggest this is bad practice anyway.

[Arnold]

Interestingly at the mixed sprint relay they did use touch free technology (it seems without problems) - bit strange they didn't in the other sprint race

As one runner commented, at Elite level you almost wouldn't be able to hold a sprint relay without touch free punching, as the disadvantage from having to wait to punch would be too big.

[DJM]

Interestingly at the mixed sprint relay they did use touch free technology (it seems without problems) - bit strange they didn't in the other sprint race

The argument for using touch free punching for Foot-O is strongest for Sprint relay races where, because of the mass start, bunches of runners try to punch more or less together.

This doesn't happen for individual start Sprint races, so there is not the same pressure to have touch free punching there.

[housewife]

Mårten gives his side of the story:

http://www.martenbostrom.com/news.html

[seabird]

But if you really are worried about security I suspect that SI units are easier to secure to a fixed object, as they have a large hole in the middle that a wire strop can be passed through.

and 2 smaller holes at the end which a smaller gauge gripple wire will pass through. the advantage being that it does not have the potential to obstruct punching the way that the thicker wires do when placed through the centre of the SI box.

[Dave]

So, 2 weeks on and still no mention on this thread of Hollie putting in a solid performance and finishing in the top 20...

[Paul Frost]

So why has it taken you so long to do so?