World Cup Round 1

[buzz]

The first round of World Cup races kicked off today in Turkey with GB represented by Hector Haynes and Hollie Orr.

The top 30 go through from today's Middle distance qualifier to tomorrows A Final. Hollie made it into the final by just 8 seconds but Hector missed out by just 39 seconds.

They say there's live tracking for the final with starts from 7.00am our time tomorrow (I think ).

On Sunday there's the new format mixed sprint relay - doesn't look like we have team though unless its two person.

More on world of O' here http://news.worldofo.com/2014/02/28/world-cup-qualification-sweden-and-switzerland-dominate/

[graeme]

World Champion out due to emit failure !!!

...edit...
World Champion back in again because nobody takes emit seriously
...another edit...
Looks like he is out now.

When Mårten comes to RaceTheCastles PWT he can use SI...

Let's hope Hollie doesn't get knocked out by random reinstatements.

[Lard]

Hollie only landed in Antalya at 8pm last night. She's doing a flyby just to grab some ranking points. Don't expect her to be winning anything....just yet.
Looking a tight race in the mens, comiserations to Hector - at least he's enjoying a longer holiday out there...Presumably you still get decent ranking points in the B race if you beat high ranked folk, of which there are quite a few....

[Big Jon]

World Champion back in again because nobody takes emit seriously
When Mårten comes to RaceTheCastles PWT he can use SI...
Let's hope Hollie doesn't get knocked out by random reinstatements.

I don't understand how an emit brikke can miss 4 punches - if it fails it fails and nothing registers - sounds to me like he tried to speed punch and paid the price.
Re Balmoral - he can use SI, everyone can use SI, but only if SI specialists do timing....

[housewife]

Speed punching is where you get close enough to the emit unit to register a punch, without going through the faff of properly inserting the brikke into the unit. Anyone who watched the woc tv coverage would have seen Mårten speed punch his way to victory there. He saved considerable time on other competitors with this. Fair play to him. its not against the rules, and its a gamble many elite chose to take. Personally, it's a gamble I wouldn't take, but that's my choice. The question should be why do we allow a system to be used in major events that let's people save time by taking a gamble?

[awk]

Glad you said that - I was going to post something exactly along those lines earlier (the gamble bit), but then thought that it might just be me getting on my high horse again about Emit. Sounds better coming from you!

[Big Jon]

You can gamble with SI - punch very quickly and hope it registers. I don't see what the fuss about Emit is based on except hysteria!

[andypat]

Speed punching is where you get close enough to the emit unit to register a punch, without going through the faff of properly inserting the brikke into the unit. Anyone who watched the woc tv coverage would have seen Mårten speed punch his way to victory there. He saved considerable time on other competitors with this. Fair play to him. its not against the rules, and its a gamble many elite chose to take. Personally, it's a gamble I wouldn't take, but that's my choice. The question should be why do we allow a system to be used in major events that let's people save time by taking a gamble?

I learned about this from a Finnish GRAMP member about 2 years ago and tried it in the Scottish Sprint Champs when it was up in Aberdeen and it definitely does work and it does save you time. You just need to jam the tail of the emit brikke into the back of the unit to get a punch, it doesnt require you to slot the entire card in which can be finicky esp in sprint events when the units are all over the place. From my perspective I reckon it was a similar but slightly bigger advantage than I started to get when I got a new faster SI card over my old one. Agree with Claire its a gamble and also with her query about whether this effective loophole does query its robustness as a punching tool for major events.

[parallelerror]

You can gamble with SI - punch very quickly and hope it registers. I don't see what the fuss about Emit is based on except hysteria!

Both audio and visual feedback with SI (Bostrom-'no signal or sound to confirm my punch' with Emit). Symmetric rather than asymmetric punching mechanism with SI, removing incentive to speed punch. When SI fails it's more often box failures than card failures, meaning if it affects a race, it affects it more equally, especially if the cards are supplied by the organisers 'with no chance of testing it', as Bostrom's was.

There are obviously advantages to Emit (for the organisers, cost if controls get stolen, etc.). But at the World Cup the quality of the races and finding the best orienteer shoud take priority over convenience for the organiser. Bostrom visited all the controls, punched in a manner which won him WOC Sprint, and got unlucky. Orienteering isn't about finding the athlete with the best punching technique which strikes the right balance between efficiency and reliability, it's about finding the fastest athlete who completes the course on the day. On the day Bostrom was good enough at orienteering to qualify, but not at punching. A good punching system's job is to get out of the way so we can just talk about orienteering, not to be the focal point itself.

It's not hysterical to say that there are legitimate causes for concern with Emit here, and from Marten's comments it sounds like in this instance SI would have been very likely to avoid the issues that led to his DSQ.

[AndyC]

You can gamble with SI - punch very quickly and hope it registers. I don't see what the fuss about Emit is based on except hysteria!

Both audio and visual feedback with SI (Bostrom-'no signal or sound to confirm my punch' with Emit). Symmetric rather than asymmetric punching mechanism with SI, removing incentive to speed punch. When SI fails it's more often box failures than card failures, meaning if it affects a race, it affects it more equally, especially if the cards are supplied by the organisers 'with no chance of testing it', as Bostrom's was.
Orienteering isn't about finding the athlete with the best punching technique which strikes the right balance between efficiency and reliability, it's about finding the fastest athlete who completes the course on the day. On the day Bostrom was good enough at orienteering to qualify, but not at punching. A good punching system's job is to get out of the way so we can just talk about orienteering, not to be the focal point itself.

1) Emit cards with display give a clear indication that a punch has been made - if the cards supplied didn't have display that is the issue not emit itself (yes I know you can't buy cards with a display)
2) it wasn't apparently card failure as punches were registered before & after the mispunches
3) I disagree and believe punching technique, be it SI, Emit, pin punches or writing down numbers, is part of the sport and it is valid to test it

[Paul Frost]

There are obviously advantages to Emit (for the organisers, cost if controls get stolen, etc.).

This is an oft quoted advantage of Emit, but I don't think the difference in cost is that significant in the scheme of things, £95 for an SI unit and £55 for an Emit one. So you don't really want to lose either at these sorts of prices.
But if you really are worried about security I suspect that SI units are easier to secure to a fixed object, as they have a large hole in the middle that a wire strop can be passed through.

But the real question here is what exactly was the issue, because every Emit protagonist tells you that you do not need to insert the card completely and so it's just as quick as SI.

[housewife]

The issue is that it is not a level playing field. Either the back up cards should be collected and checked for complete punching (and with their ability to go AWOL this is not very practible) or is should be explained clearly on the details how speed punching works, and a unit should be supplied before hand so we can all try it out. Call me naive, but if wasn't until watching Mårten's punching technique on tv at woc last year that it became clear just how many seconds he was saving - and I have participated at woc

[housewife]

P.S. I am not anti-emit btw. I am dire at punching properly, but am not adverse to wasting a bit of time time at most events having a faff if it makes the organisers life easier. I'd say the only thing that i would judge it unsuitable for is level A sprint events and internationals. They are the races I would never consider putting myself at the disadvantage of running with a slow si card too.

[awk]

You can gamble with SI - punch very quickly and hope it registers. I don't see what the fuss about Emit is based on except hysteria!

Not hysteria, just bitter experience (and you'd have to be VERY quick for it not to confirm registration positively, almost quicker than I can punch). Emit with the screens was just about OK, but without it isn't.

[graeme]

3) I disagree and believe punching technique, be it SI, Emit, pin punches or writing down numbers, is part of the sport and it is valid to test it

Mysteriously, the IOF and BO planning guidelines give no indication of how best to do this. If you were right, then surely we'd have guidelines on amusingly angled emit units, and variable-sized objects stuck through in the SI hole for the more challenging courses.
And what do you make of rocky's threat to buy a yo-yo?