Are you looking forward to a Wilf's veggie chilli?

[Duncan]

I am pretty sure they did.

[Big Jon]

One caterer at the JK - I feel packed lunches coming on.

[MIE]

One caterer at the JK - I feel packed lunches coming on.

Especially when, on occasion, you can get quite long queues with 4 caterers.

For those unable to bring 4 days of packed lunches the relay day will be even more
"fun"

[daffdy]

As a Director of British Orienteering and someone who is totally obsessed with Wilf's veggie chilli, this is a very frustrating situation to be in. And while I respect the opinions of all posters on here, I hope you'll all agree that there aren't many facts in this thread. My club started asking questions so I found out some info:

The JK exclusive caterer agreement only applies to caterers at the JK. I don't have info about the British yet. It can't apply to club events that British Orienteering aren't directly involved with.

All existing traders were invited to provide some info - pitch, menu, prices, bidprice etc. This included all the usual suspects, O-Nosh included.

Some traders responded seriously with the info requested, including in some cases a price for an exclusive contract. Some replied but didn't think the event was worth much to them and bid too low or a notional amount that wouldn’t even cover the landowner’s trader fees for some areas, some replied but didn't think they would be able to pay anything, and one missed the deadline by about a month and was disappointed to find that things had moved on in that month.
An organisation like British Orienteering can't force a business to do business. If the traders don’t think it’s worth anything or don't want to even respond to an invitation to provide info, there's not much anyone can do except be disappointed that the traders that I for one am loyal to didn’t return the loyalty.

So to borrow MrsH’s figures, the difference between 1 trader at £1000 and four at £250 is there weren't four willing to do that sort of thing, despite some encouragement from the Office to do so.

The JK contract hasn't gone to a big nasty national caterer. It's a local caterer who has been to orienteering events before.

The caterer isn't going to try to cater an event for 1000s of people with one van. They are bringing several – four is what I’ve heard, so that’s twice as many as Wilf's did.

Ultrasport and Compasspoint had a similar process and will both be attending the JK as I understand it.

O-Nosh are not Wilf's, however often they may borrow the name. The Wilf's veggie chilli recipe is in a book on Amazon for anyone (or any trader I suppose!) to buy. I had it for dinner last night, tonight, and because the quantities are aimed at caterers, probably the rest of the week too...

And finally, any "profit" that British Orienteering (a non-profit organisation...) makes goes back into the sport.

Nopesport really isn’t the right place for this so I don’t intend to respond further on here beyond setting the record straight for the benefit of those that want to know what’s actually happening.

Usual disclaimer - these are my words in my position as lifelong orienteer and veggie chilli fan, not the Boards or anyone else at British Orienteering.
Have a nice evening everyone!

[andypat]

David
Thats a really clear and concise answer and pretty much strips away all of the concerns raised on the board, including in the initial post by Onosh, except for me, one.

Why was it felt necessary to introduce the uncertainty of a "bid" system?

You are effectively asking small even 1 person businesses to tender for a spot to be confirmed at some point in the future, when what they actually need is a price, which they can decide if they can afford, and then plan to atttend the event well in advance. Tendering has its place for businesses set up to tender, who know the values to bid at, and understand the process.

I dont think its in any way suitable for the orienteering world and is probably the key to why this issue has become such a runaway train.

Can BOF have a serious think about whether this is a fair way to do business in the close knit world of orienteering? I dont think anyone has a problem with companies paying for pitches to sell stuff at Orienteering, but it needs to be open, honest and dependeable if we are to keep the support of the sort of businesses that clearly mean so much to the people in the sport.

[AndyC]

andypat,
I think I must disagree with you on the need for a tender -if this central contract is to be placed it has to be done properly.
It may be a requirement of funders to British Orienteering that any contracts be placed by formal tender.
If you don't know what the best return (to BOF) from the contract is likely to be (and as it is a new venture they may not) a tender allows those with experience of similar service provision (pop concerts, agricutural shows, other outdoor sports) to tender on the basis of the value to them - hence giving the highest return.
The fact that some of the traditional orienteering food providers don't apparently have that experience is unfortunate.

[RJ]

......wouldn’t even cover the landowner’s trader fees for some areas.....

We may have forgotten this bit. Along with access fees this is money going out of the sport.

[Mrs H]

I don't think anyone should be losing sight of the main objective of this exercise which is to provide the best possible service to the customer. If the process is not achieving this then it's the wrong process.

To me it looks like it's starting in the wrong place. Is the landowner charging per unit? If so then ask the traders to cover it and apply a fee which will still ensure it's worth their while to attend. As long as costs are covered the priority should be about enhancing the event.

[andypat]

Agreed Mrs H!

[PhilJ]

Ranald please see back to my earlier post for your query below:

Yesterday one could also get excellent cakes at very reasonable prices from the Junior Squad stall to fund their trip to Norway. Will they or local youth and village groups still be allowed? They create a lot of goodwill for the sport in areas where there might be grumblings about the number of cars on a quiet Sunday morning.

Me:

On another topic there will be no cake stall by the regional junior squad, not allowed! So something for junior squads to consider at Jk and British champs for the rest of 2014 and years to come. Self funding source diminished due to the partnership agreement agreement. I wonder if BO and the region who sign the contract will recompense the loss of fund raising income with a reduction in funding will mean bigger contribution from parents or less training opportunities.

That also means no WI/local scout group/local church group etc..

To Mrs H - I can see the maths - £1000.00 or 4 x £250.00 for a traders, but if I were a trader I would rather exclusivity at the event i.e. no competition, so I can charge what I like e.g. all traders charge £1.00 for coffee at events, if I am the only trader I can charge £1.25.

I'm not 100% of the current situation but when I started negoitiations for the use of Swansea Univ a couple of years ago for the JK they did say that there would be no food traders as they would open up their cafeteria.

It's all about risk and reward I just hope the sole trader has sussed out the assembly area etc for Day 2 & 3, as if it's on the road by the quarries off Trefil (normal access for Merthyr Common/LLangynydir) as used in past CROESO's etc its limited and not appealing if there is lots of rain etc and Pwll Ddu in the rain is a fun mudfest

[PhilJ]

Daffydy : Thank you for your reply , I don't expect a response as I am sure as a Director you need to be wary of being dragged into Nope threads, but I do still have concerns over this process excluding the local community in fund raising and the junior squads to top up their fund to pay for regular weekend training sessions and even overseas trips (NWJS/SOA/WJS all try to have a biannual trip to Norway/Sweden etc, as it builds experience and a team bond).

There will be other opportunities at other events to fund raise but in Wales we only have the Welsh Champs with any serious entries (200), our league events rarley get over 70 entries, so this years' JK would have been a jewel in the crown to boost funds. So expect some other novel "non food" fund raising ideas coming at you at JK!! With the queues being long at the food traders you may get your coat tails pulled by a muddy junior selling raffle tickets/quiz sheets etc

[Duncan]

Incidentally, the bidding process is not the only issue that might prevent fundraising stalls from being at Partnership Agreement events. The trader information also contains these clauses which e.g. a regional squad cake stall may be unable to meet. They aren't entirely unreasonable at a major event I guess (imagine the bad press if a squad cake stall inadvertently food poisoned 100s of orienteers at the country's major event... although maybe getting orienteering into the headlines in any way is not such a bad thing...), and for a regular trader they are fine, but they might be quite onerous for infrequent fundraising stalls.

3. All Traders must have relevant Public Liability insurance cover for their activities during the weekend and a copy must be provided to the Major Event Manager at British Orienteering, no less than two months before the event.

4. All Food traders must be able to demonstrate that they are compliant with Food Safety and Food Hygiene Regulations. A copy of the local authority Food Premises Registration certificate and Food Hygiene certificate must be provided to the Major Event Manager at British Orienteering, no less than two months before the event.

6. Each trader must complete and return the Chief Fire Officers Association Fire Risk Assessment for Traders and Market Stalls and/or Food Concessions http://www.cfoa.org.uk/11544

[Arnold]

A few more thoughts on this:
- Do we know how much BOF is actually making on this? If it's 10 grand, then great that can be ploughed back into the sport (although it initially comes from the food buying public so what will prices be..) If it's 1 grand then is it really worth banning cake stalls and various other good providers from the event?
- An exclusive agreement is generally a very bad idea for customers. Not because of long queues (they should bring enough vans to maximise their profit) but because, as was said above, prices will go up and choice will go down. It's a bit like at airports when every newsagents you find is a Smiths...
- Surely there can be an exception for fundraising cake stalls?!?

[awk]

An organisation like British Orienteering can't force a business to do business. If the traders don’t think it’s worth anything or don't want to even respond to an invitation to provide info, there's not much anyone can do except be disappointed that the traders that I for one am loyal to didn’t return the loyalty.

However, there is some evidence to suggest that at least two of those businesses did submit, were led to believe one thing, and then effectively given backword.

The JK contract hasn't gone to a big nasty national caterer. It's a local caterer who has been to orienteering events before.

I'm sure they don't want to portray themselves as 'nasty', but, examining their website, Taste of Wales make every effort to portray themselves as a big national caterer, right down to their name.

The caterer isn't going to try to cater an event for 1000s of people with one van. They are bringing several – four is what I’ve heard, so that’s twice as many as Wilf's did.

Wilf's, as far as I'm aware, never had exclusivity.

Ultrasport and Compasspoint had a similar process and will both be attending the JK as I understand it.

Can't see many people queuing for food there.

O-Nosh are not Wilf's, however often they may borrow the name.

No, but like others, they go to great effort to support other events (not just cherry picking the big ones) and providing what orienteers want. Looking through the list of what Taste of Wales supply, I can see us bringing packed lunches, as Big Jon suggests.

And finally, any "profit" that British Orienteering (a non-profit organisation...) makes goes back into the sport.

Maybe, but British Orienteering, an organisation that gives the impression of distancing itself ever further from its membership and focusing ever more on the needs and requirements of the government quangos it is increasingly dependent on, should also have on its mind the needs/wants of those attending this event, i.e. its members. And hopefully, some of that money will go into the regional junior squad who cannot now raise money through selling food? (Rhetorical question - one of the areas of development that British Orienteering long abandoned are the regional junior squads).

Nopesport really isn’t the right place for this so I don’t intend to respond further on here beyond setting the record straight for the benefit of those that want to know what’s actually happening.

Perhaps it isn't, but it's pretty much the only forum available for individual members to express any view on the governance of the sport. Maybe the directors should think about setting one up that is the right place to discuss these things then?

[Karen]

Just had a look at the website for "Taste of Wales"
I get the impression from the website that they are more used to catering for spectators at sporting events than for competitors. There is a world of difference....