Whistles and Cagoules

[Blonde bombshell]

For goodness sake - you are talking about £1 plastic clip whistle.
Hardly a large outlay.

Beginners should be encouraged, from the very start, to be correctly equipped. Getting lost when you are new to the game is quite scary so knowing that a whistle would be heard from some distance should give them confidence.

After all, my daughter has to wear shin pads when she plays hockey & they are much more expensive.

[Electrocuted]

Andy

Picture yourself as event organiser standing in the Coroner's Court. Someone at your event fell in a deep concealed rock fissure and the body was found some time later. In the opinion of the court it took some time for the orienteer to die of hypothermia. It was judged that had he had a whistle to call for help there was more chance of his being discovered and his life may well have been saved. He was carrying a cagoule (it was heard by the court that this rule had been enforced) but unfortunately you as organiser had previously stated "the whistle rule is very newcomer-unwelcoming, please can we lose it?" How do you feel about things now?

Simple. Make it a recommendation, but not mandatory.

Oh and Andy would be unlikely to find himself in a coroner's court. A sheriff court perhaps.

[LostAgain]

I thought that "Orienteers take part at their own risk"

This I believe to mean that the Person taking part takes responsibility for themselves.

Once the Controller / Organiser starts insisting on "safety equipment" (cagoule & whistle) then they are assuming responsibility for the competitors safety.

I can understand that the controller / Organiser takes responsibility for the event and control sites and ensuring that the area is suitable. No "duck shooting", quicksand or deep marshes not mapped etc.

Shouldn't the details read something like "weather can be inclement you are responsible for your own safely so please dress appropriately."

Once the controller / Organiser assumes responsibility for your dress code then I'm sure it could be argued quite convincingly that a cagoule is not sufficient!! Liability!!!

[Electrocuted]

By law you cannot contract out of delictual liability for personal injury in a commercial contract so there are a number of issues in stating that participants take responsibility for their own actions.

Two things can arise out of an incident in something like orienteering. Firstly is a fatal accident inquiry or the equivalent in England. Secondly is a civil claim. A fatal accident inquiry will not attribute blame but will look at failures in the organisational system which had they not occurred may have prevented the incident happening etc.

[andypat]

Pretty much every Mountain Marathon has a required set of kit including waterproof, tent etc. I'd imagine eyebrows would be raised if they decided to to make this optional...

Mind you I've never been informed that a compass was mandatory which in bad weather surely at least as important as a whistle?

[Philip134]

Do whistles work?

Two of us hanging flags on a December Saturday afternoon for the Sunday event. It's getting past 4.30 and darkness is closing in. One of us doesn't appear at the agreed meeting point.

Lots of whistle blowing and shouting to no effect - where are we? - one reentrant apart.

I think the majority of injured and distressed are found by other competitors passing close by - hailed by the injured/distressed.

[RanaldMacdonald]

"Rule 7 Safety
7.1 Competitors are responsible for their own personal safety and for assessing their own abilities to complete the course. However, Organisers must have made reasonable risk management arrangements to mitigate the hazards that a competitors might reasonably not be aware of."

"Appendix E - Personal Safety

4.4.2 Organisers have the right to impose whatever additional requirements they think appropriate for an event or activity and must make sure they notify competitors of these requirements.

4.5.2 The Organiser must give notice if additional safety measures are required, competitors must comply with these requirements. These may be notified to competitors in advance or during the event. These measures may include the following:

* the carrying of a lightweight hooded running jacket or similar waterproof clothing
* the carrying of a whistle

4.5.3 The Organiser needs to explain the reasons in pre-race information and/or prominently at the event so that the requirements are clear. Also as to whether it is a recommendation or a mandatory requirement.

4.5.4 The Organiser needs to ensure that the check for these items is located such, that if they are mandatory, the competitor can easily return to obtain the required item. A further check may be required to ensure that competitors have not disposed of the items en-route to the start.

4.5.5 If such items are mandatory then it is essential to check every competitor en-route to the start. The worst thing that an organiser can do is make the items mandatory and then not bother to check."

The notices "No whistle, no go" and "Cagoules Compulsory" seemed clear enough to me. It was also clear that a significant number of young men ignored the cagoule notice, knowing they would not be sent back. At the start I heard a boy (M12ish?) ask his dad why, if those men didn't have to carry an anorak, he should. He was told that they were wrong but the implication was that his potential role models could get away with it so why should he bother. I raised this issue with the Controller as it did concern me.

A few years ago at Longshaw DVO imposed the 'no whistle, no go' rule at the exit from the parking field and some of our volunteers got a mouthful of abuse for their troubles. On his course but off the main route, a young man was trapped in a deep marsh and used his whistle to call for help. I had to go out in my car to recover him - he was quite shaken by his experience. A subsequent discussion on Nopesport seemed to agree that, if it's made mandatory, it should be enforced.

[denbydale]

I thought that "Orienteers take part at their own risk"

This I believe to mean that the Person taking part takes responsibility for themselves.

Once the Controller / Organiser starts insisting on "safety equipment" (cagoule & whistle) then they are assuming responsibility for the competitors safety.

Once the controller / Organiser assumes responsibility for your dress code then I'm sure it could be argued quite convincingly that a cagoule is not sufficient!! Liability!!!

There's been lots of debate about this on the FRA forum
following their new Rules and Safety Documentation

[LostAgain]

Pretty much every Mountain Marathon has a required set of kit including waterproof, tent etc. I'd imagine eyebrows would be raised if they decided to to make this optional...

Although this clearly has safety in mind, it also has an element of fairness. Insisting on a "tent" rather than a waterproof sack bivvy etc. is more about fairness than safety. The size of the area covered also dictates a different level of kit to survive the time it would take to locate you.

If the Organiser/Controller is to be held responsible for orienteers safety whilst taking part I'm surprised we get anyone volunteering. A cagoule is clearly not sufficient and a good Barrister would rip us apart in a court case. A whistle is a joke, if you are serious then a air-horn would be appropriate with flares!! As soon as a Controller / Organiser has identified a risk worthy of making "whistles" compulsory then they are potentially negligent by not advising sufficient precaution! Worrying for our sport if it is ever tested in law.

[nooomember]

Absolutely agree and always have with LostAgain:
"Re: Whistles and Cagoules

Unread postby LostAgain » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:26 pm
I thought that "Orienteers take part at their own risk"

This I believe to mean that the Person taking part takes responsibility for themselves.

Once the Controller / Organiser starts insisting on "safety equipment" (cagoule & whistle) then they are assuming responsibility for the competitors safety.

I can understand that the controller / Organiser takes responsibility for the event and control sites and ensuring that the area is suitable. No "duck shooting", quicksand or deep marshes not mapped etc.

Shouldn't the details read something like "weather can be inclement you are responsible for your own safely so please dress appropriately."

Once the controller / Organiser assumes responsibility for your dress code then I'm sure it could be argued quite convincingly that a cagoule is not sufficient!! Liability!!!"

So why cant we just use this?.... if the answer is as you say....

By law you cannot contract out of delictual liability for personal injury in a commercial contract so there are a number of issues in stating that participants take responsibility for their own actions.

Two things can arise out of an incident in something like orienteering. Firstly is a fatal accident inquiry or the equivalent in England. Secondly is a civil claim. A fatal accident inquiry will not attribute blame but will look at failures in the organisational system which had they not occurred may have prevented the incident happening etc.

Then, surely we shouldnt be putting that you take part at your own risk - you cannot have it both ways.

And as for making cagoules compulsory - if, like at Wharcliffe, where it was supposed to be made compulsory, (which in my view was wrong also), then please enforce it or let anyone diregard it as i saw at least 3 people run not wearing or carrying one... if i name and shame then can they be disqualified retrospectively?

[Snail]

I always carry a whistle for my own safety. And if the organiser - knowing the terrain / weather forecast better than I do - recommends it, I would carry a cagoule for the same reason. If I break a leg in a wet / cold forest, a cagoule might just keep me alive long enough to be rescued. And with a whistle I am far more likely to be rescued.

On open fells whsitles can be heard a long way off - up to some miles. But in forest, and particularly if the underlying ground shape has a lot of spurs / reentrants, this comes down dramatically, to even under 100m. (We tested it out on a controller's course some years ago). But even at that range you should be able to find someone using a whistle with a search team operating at roughly 150-200m intervals. (And if you have to sweep a whole forest to find someone before it gets dark you might only have enough people to operate at around 200m intervals). As MIE said, voice has a much lower carry range - particularly someone has been lying there for a few hours - so there is a much greater chance of missing them.

So I am not that bothered what the rules say - it is just common sense.

[roadrunner]

When I started orienteering (in the 80s) I think most people came to the sport from hill walking and the like, and it was (and as far as I know still is) standard practice to carry a whistle when doing this, so they would certainly have one and almost certainly bring it with them; likewise cagoules if the weather is bad. Maybe the issue now is that people are coming more from running backgrounds, where this isn't the norm.

Surely, though, events aimed at newcomers are likely to be in areas where whistles (and cagoules, for that matter) would not be made compulsory anyway?

[DJM]

Surely, though, events aimed at newcomers are likely to be in areas where whistles (and cagoules, for that matter) would not be made compulsory anyway?

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned WMOA policy which seems to be that whistles are mandatory at all their events, even the urban ones ...

[Big Jon]

I'd be interested to know how many orienteers have been saved through carrying a whistle (in real life situations, not make-believe controller course set-ups).
Any one got any numbers?

[DaveR]

I'd be interested to know how many orienteers have been saved through carrying a whistle (in real life situations, not make-believe controller course set-ups).
Any one got any numbers?

No idea, but I'll bet the answer is close to zero.

There is no "quality control" on the whistles being carried so I suspect that many are close to useless. I think that most whistles are somewhat less audible than a genuine cry of pain or terror. I know that all of the (thankfully) very few orienteers I've encountered in serious trouble, it has been their cries that have alerted me.