Shock! Horror!

[Paul Frost]

All the more reason to do away with the concept of adult S courses and just replace them with a full set of colour coded courses without prizes. You will still be competing against your peers (but those in terms of ability rather than specifically in age). If you don't feel able to compete on a long course, you can then enter your usual colour coded course. No prizes necessary, and a slightly lower entry fee than the championship courses.

This looks a good compromise that could also be applied the other way, if you want to run a longer course than your age class. Then you don't mess up the numbers/points for the people who want to keep age class competition pure. You don't even need to plan extra courses, just designate that X course is for X age class & X colour.

What I don't agree with, is why should there be any difference in entry fees for an age class course or a colour course? The costs in providing the run are the same for both. Can anyone explain why there should be a differential?

[Big Jon]

I've heard a story that when Carol McNeil started acting her age and running the "proper" course for her age, one of her competitors complained that it wasn't fair and that Carol shouldn't be allowed to run as she was too good.........

[graeme]

Last year a sometime participant in this forum who ran "up" in UKOL got DQ'ed. Even though she won. Not sure if that was for being too good or too old. Also, at another event, got moaned at for running down (from 21L) and for running up (from 35S). There's no pleasing some people.

[andypat]

What I don't agree with, is why should there be any difference in entry fees for an age class course or a colour course? The costs in providing the run are the same for both. Can anyone explain why there should be a differential?

I think that depends. For example if you run colour coded at s6d you are very much a second class citizen. No cumulative result s. No prizes. No trophy to engrave. No certificates. No one cares. Also the costs in terms of the planners time would be much less. Imagine how many different short courses suddenly transfer into 1 green course. I think the main issue might turn out to be the start window if all the shortest suddenly want to do green.

[SJC]

Also the costs in terms of the planners time would be much less. Imagine how many different short courses suddenly transfer into 1 green course.

This might be true for the Scottish 6 Day, but looking at the Southern Champs courses for tomorrow all of the Short classes are running on another age groups Long course. Saving to the planner of removing the Short courses would be zero.

[Paul Frost]

I thought the concept of removing short courses was also to take away any stigma of not being able to complete the normal course length. I fully accept that there are lots of good reasons why people run short, but there is no escaping that some people think that short course runners are 2nd class citizens (not me, I have done it myself on several occasions). I would have thought running some colour would be less obviously a short course, and I said before you could also be running longer by choice.

There is no reason there would only be one green (TD5) course, there could be a full set.
The S6Days only offered a TD5 colour course for the first time in 2013. The entry fees were much lower, so it was valid that they were not treated to all the bells & whistles of the age class courses. I think the idea was that local non regular orienteers might be pulled in by offering a cheap intro course, but I understand that there was very little or zero take up from locals.

We have to change our mindset about colour coded being less important, they are only less important because we say they are and charge less for them. We could treat them like any other course if we wanted to.

If you are going to give prizes (not common at most events) then that would justify a lower entry fee. But you could give prizes to colour course winners as well, and I think we should give more prizes (including spot prizes), but they need to pay for them.

I don't think the argument that you have to offer cheap courses to encourage newcomers is valid at something like the British Champs and other major events. These events are not really the ideal introduction to a newcomer, the start officials etc. don't have the time to help them and explain what's going on and give advice.

The Scottish O League guidelines say that entry fees for TD4 or less course should be at the junior rate. This solves the problem by making entry cheap to encourage adult newcomers or those injured but in need of a limited O fix. You are unlikely to be a newcomer if you can go straight out on a TD5 course, so why should you get a reduced rate?

The cost of map printing, toilets, parking fees, land access etc. doesn't change depending on which course you do. We already subsidise juniors by changing adults more, and that is probably the right thing to do, but why should experienced adults subsidise other adults?

[andypat]

There is no reason there would only be one green (TD5) course, there could be a full set.
The S6Days only offered a TD5 colour course for the first time in 2013. The entry fees were much lower, so it was valid that they were not treated to all the bells & whistles of the age class courses. I think the idea was that local non regular orienteers might be pulled in by offering a cheap intro course, but I understand that there was very little or zero take up from locals.

We have to change our mindset about colour coded being less important, they are only less important because we say they are and charge less for them. We could treat them like any other course if we wanted to.

I don't think the argument that you have to offer cheap courses to encourage newcomers is valid at something like the British Champs and other major events. These events are not really the ideal introduction to a newcomer, the start officials etc. don't have the time to help them and explain what's going on and give advice.

I wasnt clear about that but I wasnt suggesting there only be a green course, more so that the green course by definition is the one that is likely to be shorter for most people, blue or brown being longer than a lot of short courses.

You also need to take account of the non-orienteering family members in your argument. My wife will often come to a SOL and do an orange to pass the time - I suspect a lot of people are in similar positions. She's happy to pay £5 for that but on the odd occasion where clubs (you know who you are!) dont follow the SOL guidelines regarding colour coded prices (quoted somewhere above) she refuses to pay the EOD price for a normal SOL adult, so just doesnt participate.

[Glucosamine]

You also need to take account of the non-orienteering family members in your argument. My wife will often come to a SOL and do an orange to pass the time - I suspect a lot of people are in similar positions. She's happy to pay £5 for that but on the odd occasion where clubs (you know who you are!) dont follow the SOL guidelines regarding colour coded prices (quoted somewhere above) she refuses to pay the EOD price for a normal SOL adult, so just doesnt participate.

Marginal pricing seems a reasonable model (think 'i' and Independent newspaper) provided the margin does not displace the core and costs are genuinely marginal. But costs which scale with numbers (such as extra loo hire) may be not insignificant. Current government policy would say that it is a market out there and the customer can make a decision on what the seller is offering. Perhaps that is why parkrun numbers continue to increase in these straitened times.

[Paul Frost]

You also need to take account of the non-orienteering family members in your argument. My wife will often come to a SOL and do an orange to pass the time - I suspect a lot of people are in similar positions. She's happy to pay £5 for that but on the odd occasion where clubs (you know who you are!) dont follow the SOL guidelines regarding colour coded prices (quoted somewhere above) she refuses to pay the EOD price for a normal SOL adult, so just doesnt participate.

So the SOA needs to lean on those clubs and encourage them to apply the guidelines. I would be interested to know what the response of the non-complient clubs is when they are challenged about their non TD5 adult entry fees?
If British Orienteering also promoted a similar position of charging one rate for non TD5 courses it would answer many of the issues posted here about the entry fees for new or less committed individuals.

[dorien]

andypat wrote

For example if you run colour coded at s6d you are very much a second class citizen. No cumulative results. No prizes. No trophy to engrave. No certificates. No one cares.

On the other hand, the Ranking Points available on the Orange (1277 for fourth place) compared very favourably with the M50L (1269 for third place). Our "second-class citizens" came home rather chuffed. We all had to pretend that no-one cared.

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=results&eday=57370&results=57370&course=10&
http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=results&eday=57370&results=57370&course=33&

[Arnold]

At last year's British I tried to name the non-Champs courses a bit differently to make them sound attractive to occasional orienteers ("long easy" / "long difficult" / "short easy" / "short difficult") complete with description of what that meant.

People generally thought that was a bit weird and quickly said "ah yes but what you really mean is red/blue/orange/short green"...so not sure how many occasional orienteers we ended up attracting.

I do admit spending less time on the colour coded courses than the other ones, mostly using the controls less visited by the main courses. But there are only so many really good legs on one area not all courses can have them. I still think the courses turned out OK though.

[LostAgain]

We have to change our mindset about colour coded being less important, they are only less important because we say they are and charge less for them. We could treat them like any other course if we wanted to.

I'm not sure I can agree with you.

Surely, at the British Champs and Jk the aim is to have a competition in which to find Age Class Champions. IMHO this should be done over a single course, call it Long or Elite for each age class.

Short courses in each age class seem an irrelevance to me at these competitions as the subset of runners running them would probably be stuffed by the Long or Elite top 10 and therefore should not be prize/medal courses.

For those who do not want to compete in the Age Class competition there should be Colour Coded courses, much cheaper as they are essentially not part of the Age Class event. These courses are for family members who do not want to compete in the "Age Class" competition, whether it is ability, distance or with respect to this thread cost.

[Paul Frost]

Short courses in each age class seem an irrelevance to me at these competitions as the subset of runners running them would probably be stuffed by the Long or Elite top 10 and therefore should not be prize/medal courses.

If Short courses in age class are irrelevant, then providing colour courses of varying length at TD5 difficulty seems the ideal solution for those that don't want to run the full distance required for their age class but do want the technical difficulty.

For those who do not want to compete in the Age Class competition there should be Colour Coded courses, much cheaper as they are essentially not part of the Age Class event. These courses are for family members who do not want to compete in the "Age Class" competition, whether it is ability, distance or with respect to this thread cost.

But there is not really any difference in cost to provide a map, results, toilets, car parking etc. for a colour course or an age class course, so why should they pay less? If you are going to give prizes, which have a cost, to age class winners only then they should pay more. But why not give prizes to both and keep the entry fee the same.

But I agree that courses of less than TD5 should be cheaper, as they are generally run by newcomers, the less experienced and juniors. They are often completed in a shorter time, sometimes less than 20mins, so perceived value for money comes into it. Plus we want to encourage these people, so some subsidy from the TD5 entry fees is probably acceptable.

As I said before, we don't have to treat colour code course people as second class citizens, we have just chosen to do so in the past.
In other sports there is no assumption that people of a certain age are expected to do a certain distance. People choose to do a 5k, 10k, half or full marathon, or a sprint, standard, half or full Ironman triathlon based on their ability or preference. Some of that may be due to the fact that they can't spend as much time training due to work or family commitments, or because they prefer short & fast to endurance.

[aiming off]

What an un-inclusive elitist bunch you are.

In the 1980's, when folks actually turned up to a british, you would typically have had 65 M21 competitors running the longest course, and around 320 who didn't.

It is the 320 who have gradually, and insidiously, been made to feel that they don't belong there.

Thats why the British has declined, and the six day hasn't.

[LostAgain]

But there is not really any difference in cost to provide a map, results, toilets, car parking etc. for a colour course or an age class course, so why should they pay less? If you are going to give prizes, which have a cost, to age class winners only then they should pay more. But why not give prizes to both and keep the entry fee the same.

But I agree that courses of less than TD5 should be cheaper, as they are generally run by newcomers, the less experienced and juniors. They are often completed in a shorter time, sometimes less than 20mins, so perceived value for money comes into it. Plus we want to encourage these people, so some subsidy from the TD5 entry fees is probably acceptable.

I think you miss the point. The people turning up to run the colour coded courses at the British Champs and JK have already deliberately decided that they do not want to take part. Attracting these people to enter a CC course is a means of obtaining an entry fee which will contribute something, albeit a smaller amount than the main event. Putting the fee at the same price or similar to the BO and JK entry means these people will not enter and thereby you receive nothing at all.

The CC entries used to be the less keen family orienteer accompanying the more competitive family member. The BO entry fee this year may shift this, hence, this thread and subsequent discussion.