JEC 2013

[bewildered]

It says this in the selection policy:

JEC is being included in the Programme for 2013 to give those junior athletes who may not have experienced international competition in 2013 and an opportunity to put into practice high performance race techniques and strategies against international standard competition.

It may be that those within the Squad were told that this doesn't exclude JWOC runners. But that is how most other people understood that sentence. Of course the sentence is badly worded ("and an"), which might lead to this misunderstanding.

[buzz]

Will - well done for standing up and airing your views. You've raised a few interesting points which I hope you don't mind me picking up on.

Personally, I was pleased with my 11th place in the sprint. I went into JEC with my main focus on the sprint, and looking to improve on the JWOC result in this discipline; and coming out of it being 30 seconds off a medal, when I had a far from clean race, I was fairly pleased with.

It seems you were pleased with the result but not disappointed with the performance - given that it sounds like you could have won a medal with a clean run. This approach seems to be consistent with most accounts that I've seen or heard from squad athletes and coaches in recent years and is I think one of the fundamental problems. In my opinion you would have been better served focusing on a good 'performance' at JEC aiming for a clean run and letting the speed and results take care of themselves. Florian Schneider's article regarding JWOC illustrates this very well.

I'm not sure if any were unfairly excluded...

Actually there have been a number of specific issues with recent selections which have been raised privately for obvious reasons.

...if you're not good enough you don't go. Simple.

You've hit the nail on the head - this is exactly what BO appears to think. Unfortunately it just doesn't make any sense in the context of junior development. The aim is surely to identify talented athletes and develop their performance to achieve future results. Motivation and experience are key elements of development and exactly what JEC, EYOC and JWOC are about. Not selecting full teams is demotivating individuals and depriving athletes of valuable experience (including those who were selected but missed out on a competitive relay run).

[mharky]

For some people, finishing at the bottom of the results list close to 30 minutes behind, with not apparent way of closing the gap, might actually be demoralising rather than motivating. So it would be better to have them compete at races with weaker opposition so they can see an achievable path of improvement.

If you can come within 1min/km of the winners then that's a good start, but when your 2-3min/km it's very hard to see how you can get close

[SJC]

Finishing at the bottom of the results list close to 30 minutes behind, with no apparent way of closing the gap

If there really is no way of closing the gap then perhaps this is the time to find out, and question why the person is in the squad in the first place.

However this is unlikely to be the case as basic running speed will only account for a few minutes of the time gap. So the whole point of going to an event like JEC is to realise the position you are in and from there work on a plan on how you will close the gap. If you don't go then you will remain in blissful ignorance of the true situation.

[mharky]

Ignorance is not an excuse.

If you know how good you are compared to the GBR athletes who competed at JEC, then you can make an approximate extrapolation as to your ability compared to the internationals who won JEC.

[DIDSCO]

Anyone finishing 30mins behind with a cleanish run is not going to be near any British team, so your demoralising point is rubbish Mharky. With the right coaching team an event like JEC should only be a positive experience. If you want to get to the top you compete with the best, and train with the best, with a long term individual plan that is constantly reviewed and under guidance of a set of experienced and motivated coaches in all aspects of the sport.

The long term athlete development plan that British orienteering is following is good, but their view of competition is wrong and not in line with the principles of the system developer by Istvan Bayli, who is regarded as the world expert in this area. I met Istvan last year at a seminar and discussed many of these issues about elite sports development. At the +15/16 age group competition should be a fundamental part of an athletes training plan both in training and real competition, carefully managed by athletes and coaches. These kids need to learn to perform, and part of this is actually performing and getting the chance to perform.

[buzz]

For some people, finishing at the bottom of the results list close to 30 minutes behind, with not apparent way of closing the gap, might actually be demoralising rather than motivating. So it would be better to have them compete at races with weaker opposition so they can see an achievable path of improvement.

I agree with Mharky that its important to guard against demoralising experiences. Some talented juniors may be too young or inexperienced for a particular international. But if BO are going to use that as a reason for excluding individuals whose results might otherwise justify selection then I think they should check their facts beforehand (by for example consulting the athlete's coach), tell the athlete the reason for the decision and suggest what they need to do to be selected in the future.

[graeme]

when your 2-3min/km it's very hard to see how you can get close

Anyone finishing 30mins behind ...

In fact, the furthest back anyone finished was 26 minutes.

[DIDSCO]

A quick look at that run , 26 mins behind, and you see a run with a lot of mistakes. Don't see why that athlete should be demoralised, just has to analyse his run and work on the technical areas which led to his time losses. He could make huge progress in a relatively short time with the right training and coaching.

[BenM]

So yeah, I was 26 minutes down on the long. Am I happy with how the race went? No. Am I happy with how I coped on a type of area I have little experience on? No. Do I want to make excuses about it and give up orienteering? NO. Without having even done a training session since JEC (the team got colds) I know exactly where I went wrong, why it happened, what I need to work on and equally what went well. Those mistakes wouldn't have happened by running on a comfortable UK area I was familiar with.

[madmike]

So yeah, I was 26 minutes down on the long. Am I happy with how the race went? No. Am I happy with how I coped on a type of area I have little experience on? No. Do I want to make excuses about it and give up orienteering? NO. Without having even done a training session since JEC (the team got colds) I know exactly where I went wrong, why it happened, what I need to work on and equally what went well. Those mistakes wouldn't have happened by running on a comfortable UK area I was familiar with.

A good post Ben and much credit for posting. You will have gained some experience that can only benefit you in the long term. You can also use the negative comments on here to motivate yourself to prove them wrong - make them eat their words mate!

[bewildered]

I think that there have hardly been any negative comments about those that were selected. The comments have been mainly around whether a couple of selection met BO's selection policy and why no M/W18s went.

Reading various top sports peoples books recently shows that the effect of being beaten drives them on to better things in the long run. It is their response to failure that sets them apart from the rest. Many of the best athletes have had their failures as juniors. In fact many of them weren't the very best juniors at all.

[mharky]

I wasn't talking about anyone at this race or any other specific race. I was pointing out that if you come miles down in a race it isn't necessarily the positive learning experience that the majority of posters seem to think it is.

I personally think we do have enough juniors of a good enough standard to go to JEC with positive developmental consequences. But I'm not a selector. However I understand the principles of BOF's selections. The notion that every start spot in a competition should always be filled doesn't make sense to me. There are plenty of other sports that won't take their full allotment of athletes. Anyone who thinks all sports should be filled should go have a look at the World XC entry lists for the last few years...

[bewildered]

Anyone who thinks all sports should be filled should go have a look at the World XC entry lists for the last few years...

I assume you mean Athletics World XC.

As far as I can tell, in 2009 they sent 6 girls and 6 boys to the U20s. The same in 2010, 2011 and 2013. There doesn't seem to have been one in 2012.

Just an example: 2009 Jonathon Hay is last British Finisher in 90th. Two years later he is 37th.

Should he not have been sent?

[bewildered]

One other thought, and one that is often missed by those selecting and making policies.

JEC might have been the pinnacle of someone's Orienteering career. It could be that they decide, when they leave school, to try something else and drop orienteering. They could find that the transition to Uni or college or a job doesn't allow them the time to train properly. They could get a career ending injury. Or worse.

While the Talent Squad aims are to produce Podium runners at WOC in the future, denying athletes the opportunity to race at the highest level because it doesn't fit in to this does not make sense, if you sympathise with the paragraph above.