JEC 2013

[buzz]

Couldn't agree more.

So can you tell me what this evidence I'm missing on the WOC GPS tracks is? For obvious reasons I've spent a lot of time looking at them, and if I'm missing something I'd like to know what it is.

Sorry Graeme I was only agreeing with the general point not the specifics of WOC although my impression was that we did better in urban rather than forest terrain and in the less technical long race rather than middle and relay. That was only my impression though and it sounds like you have more stats to hand.

Certainly in JWOC where I looked harder at the stats the gaps behind the leaders couldn't be explained by a lack of track speed alone.

[mharky]

We had better athletes in the sprint and long than we did in the middle, so we got better results. Stats can be used to show anything, but they really mean nothing. You want to know what the issues are, talk to the athletes.

[graeme]

You want to know what the issues are, talk to the athletes.

But will you tell us? As you have alluded in the past, athletes have a VERY strong incentive not to p*ss off the selectors, which tempers what you can say in public. Maybe you can tell us what the athletes thought about:

Holding WOC selection in Finland (relevance vs inclusiveness).
Tiny elite squad which (AFAIK) didn't do anything.
Not taking a full team to WOC.
Self-funding World Cup team, mainly people who wouldn't even try for WOC selection.

Stats can be used to show anything,

Go on then, show us how we actually did best in middle

[DIDSCO]

Graeme > sorry thought it was obvious.
Put up Cat Taylor's gps up against Niggli's in the long. Run them together from the start. She got our best forest result at WOC, a fantastic result, but by just looking at the first 7 controls you can see she lost alot of time in small mistakes and route choice errors. When she's almost clean for the first 2 controls she's right up there with Niggli. Greater track speed is not going to make much difference to her winning a medal next year, but even better orienteering skills will. I can't comment on her running strength in terrain as I've never seen her run. I can't comment on the mental side either. If I was her coach I'd be very excited about working on improving her technical side as it will make a massive difference and put her right up there in the medals. Go Cat Taylor!

[andypat]

Yes, but I'd be hugely surprised if Cat Taylor didnt also make any realistic track time target that you could set for elite selection. You are arguing that an already fast athlete needs to work more on her technical skills But its not the same as saying that speed doesnt count.

I absolutely agree that you cant just say eg "If you can do sub 15min 5k then you are in the team."

BUT whats wrong with saying something like
"If you can do sub 16min 5k and finish in the top 2 of the selection race then you are in" ?

Something along those lines would be much more transparent, give a clearer SMART objective to the athletes, but would still give the selectors some leeway to add in a 3rd athlete who hadnt made one or other of the criteria on the basis of injury or who were developing in the right direction.

[Gross]

Speed counts I said (or was it echo), but that doesn't mean pure track speed should be used as a selection criteria as suggested by andypat & others. Simply look at the test pre WOC 1995 in Germany in those beautiful hilly beech forest.... clean as a tartan track.

Along comes Mr X from Kenya... an almost Olympic medallist in 10k... ask him to tag on behind Mr Thoresson.... a very good Norwegian. 2k into a 10k course & the track athlete is no-where, and he's just following.

Saying 16 mins for 10k (or whatever) and top 2 in test races is going to encourage sloppy technique that might win friends & influence people in the small pool of British orienteering but will get the athlete no-where in international terms.

Maybe redefine speed as running ability. Unfortunately of the 3 elements require to succeed it's the only one you can measure. So 'running ability, technique & mental' that's what you need in the magic combination - and probably the most difficult to master is 'mental'.

[graeme]

Cat's GPS basically tells you her WOC was about running with Alexandersson and Efimova. And ultimately not quite being quick enough to keep up, despite doing more than her fair share of the navigation. Yes there are the small mistakes that she and her pack are making (nothing compared with Efimova's 6-min walkabout at 2). But comparing to Niggli, are you really saying there are 8mins worth of errors?

We may not like the way IOF run the competition, and I mean no criticism of Cat whatsoever, but this is the reality of breaking top-10 at WOC (see also Scott and GG's top-10 classic runs...).

Cat is a tremendous talent, and I'm sure like everyone else she'll be aiming to get faster and cleaner. Gross talks about "mental": a large part of that is having enough oxygen in your brain to make good decisions.

[andypat]

Saying 16 mins for 10k (or whatever) and top 2 in test races is going to encourage sloppy technique that might win friends & influence people in the small pool of British orienteering but will get the athlete no-where in international terms.

I think you need to explain why that would be the case? Why wouldn't it encourage people to get faster and make less mistakes?

And going back to the issue at the start of this thread - it would let people see what they needed to do to qualify, rather than laying all of the responsibility on those people in the darkened room.

[Gross]

I think you need to explain why that would be the case? Why wouldn't it encourage people to get faster and make less mistakes?

If you are working at a lower technical level you can use leg speed to make up for inaccurancies... and speed is probably easier to improve than technical ability - as has alrady been mentioned on this thread....

(of course it is a massive generalization to say orienteers in Britain work at a lower technical level than elsewhere.... )

[Vidalos]

However success recently has been achieved in the Sprint where speed has to make a significant contribution as you've only got 3-4K to make a difference.

So should speed be a key criteria for selection for this discipline even for the Juniors ?

Also whilst selection for such as EYOC JEC is based on Long Distance Forest events should there be separate quailfication for the Sprint at these events or is this not considered serious and proper orienteering ????

[Broken Ground]

Traditionally there would be a sprint race as one of the selection races for EYOC. But then traditionally it would also be in June/July and hence the JK weekend could be used. Look at JWOC this year where the selection races were JK Sprint, Middle and Long. You can't complain about that!

BOF were just unlucky this year that EYOC was moved and ended up later in the year, and hence their hand was forced as the only events a sensible time out from EYOC (to enable athletes to prepare) was the Scottish. It isn't perfect - theres no event type variation, there's no seeded starts and its meant to be a holiday event but it was a dam sight better than just picking people at random!

[gaw]

However success recently has been achieved in the Sprint where speed has to make a significant contribution as you've only got 3-4K to make a difference.

I think at JWOC, at least in the girls, our best results recently have been from those who are not the fastest track or road runners. It's still the orienteering that counts - route choice under pressure, planning ahead, etc.

In the forest races if speed is a factor but track time is not a good indicator then perhaps a terrain time trial might be a good selection tool. This was used for JWOC 5 years ago (JWOC in Italy?) at Great Tower and I think, again in the girls, that showed up some excellent terrain runners who may not be the fastest track or road runners. I remember it was a much rougher and tougher course than a typical xc race.

[gaw]

I think I have also read that Thierry G does all his training in terrain. Doesn't seem to have done him any harm!

And an interesting comment from OJ on his attackpoint recently which suggested that his focus on fell running, with some success, has not kept his terrain running up to the level he had when focussing on mainly/solely on orienteering.

[Lard]

The "Great Tower Time Trial" has been mooted as a returning event in the Junior Cup series. But as BO are sticklers for paper shuffling I daresay this absolutely fabulous idea of Nixon's still won't be up and running in 2014.

I have all the GT course maps, results etc if it ever gets up and running again.

Orienteering, Fell running, track racing, triathlon, marathon, Muddy Fudder, whatever - like any car race you can think of you need a bloody good engine (but you also need to know how to steer the damn thing).

[afterthought]

Best wishes to GBR runners in France: sprint tomorrow, long Saturday, relay Sunday.

7 GRE (sic) Great Britain
Lucy BUTT W20
Ciaran ALLEN M20
William GARDNER M20
Ben MALIPHANT M20
Ben MITCHELL M20