Split starts

[HarryO]

The provision of allocated start times at Level B events was written into the rules as part of the process of making them better events than Level C ones.

There's nothing "better' about allocated start times in my book! Trying to get the whole family sorted and off to the start in time for their allocated start time is a nightmare. (Especially when the start times are wildly different - it happens!)
Yes, I understand about fairness by separating runners. But as Clive said, this can be done by the start team.
Strange what our governing body's definition of 'better' is! The best event for us is one where we can turn up and go.

[Homer]

I disagree completely. The best event for me is where you can turn up at the start, warmed-up and ready to go, at your start time without hanging around/queuing in the cold/wet for an indeterminate period of time before starting.

[HarryO]

Fair enough. For me its a family/kids thing. I like the freedom to send them off at times that suit me - and not be tied down to sometimes ridiculous start times where I have to go before my kids! And other such strange start times.

[Clive Coles]

The trend in East Anglia seems to be quite clear



http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=118&postcode=&radius=&filter_assoc=1&filter_club=Select...&start_date_day=&start_date_month=&start_date_year=&end_date_day=&end_date_month=&end_date_year=&filter_level=2&bFilter=Filter

The number of level B events being staged are gettting fewer and fewer ~ if it wasn't for the VHI and Compassport Cup qualifying round there would only be three level B's in East Anglia in the next 18 months.

There doesn't seem to be much of a clammer from our club members to stage so called "special" level B events . The clubs therefore prefer to put on events at level C on a turn up and go basis. This seems to be what our members want.

Perhaps those clubs who find that their level B events attract lower than anticipated participants should ask why. Are there sufficient orienteers like Homer prepared to pay a higher entry fee in order to have a guaranteed start time ? Do families really want the hastle of organising themselves around rigid split start times ? Is the strict enforcement of "Rules" putting people off ?

Perhaps the decline in attendees at these smaller level B events should act as a warning.

[graeme]

Have you two switched usernames? ...

Yes Homer .... yes yes yes

[EddieH]

Homer wrote:
"I disagree completely. The best event for me is where you can turn up at the start, warmed-up and ready to go, at your start time without hanging around/queuing in the cold/wet for an indeterminate period of time before starting."

I am not sure who he was disagreeing with as on the face of it this seems to say "I want open starts so that I don't have to wait when I get there too early".

Or does it mean "I want allocated start times so that I don't have to wait in a long queue waiting for a start slot".

Personally I like allocated starts because it makes the event feel like an occasion, but also I dislike long queues waiting to be allowed to start. I tend to run courses in parts of the country where this is not an issue and then for average events I like the turn up and go. However I have been to a number of populated events in cold weather when I have arrived an there has been a long queue - an allocated start is definitely preferable then as far as I'm concerned, and in all but the biggest events no penalty for starting early or late - just the knowledge that you might have to queue.

It interests me that the vast majoroty of people turn up for their allocated start times at SOLs even though they don't have to so I don't see it as a big problem.

[frog]

At yesterday's SOL the popular corses didn't have many spaces if setting off at 2 min intervals eg the blue course had 60 entries so you could have been waiting for an hour to start if unallocated start times as often many people arrive early. I prefer allocated starts with some flexibility. Yesterday if anyone was late they just got fitted in in a gap.
From an organisers point of view it's easier to not bother with start times. The people manning the start wouldn't thank you though and it's less likely a family would get similar start time if there's a huge queue for blue but none for orange.

[Homer]

Homer wrote:
"I disagree completely. The best event for me is where you can turn up at the start, warmed-up and ready to go, at your start time without hanging around/queuing in the cold/wet for an indeterminate period of time before starting."

I am not sure who he was disagreeing with as on the face of it this seems to say "I want open starts so that I don't have to wait when I get there too early".

Or does it mean "I want allocated start times so that I don't have to wait in a long queue waiting for a start slot".

I was meaning the latter. I live in a more populated area than Eddie and have, on occasion, turned up at an exposed moorland start only to find a queue of 5-10 people waiting to start on my course. I tend to go away and keep jogging around to keep warm rather than standing in the queue getting cold.
I remember on one occasion this happened at a Level B event where the organising club hadn't bothered to pre-allocate start times.

[DJM]

Perhaps the decline in attendees at these smaller level B events should act as a warning.

Is one reason for this the fact that event fliers rarely seem to mention the level of the event these days?

[DJM]

For me its a family/kids thing. I like the freedom to send them off at times that suit me - and not be tied down to sometimes ridiculous start times where I have to go before my kids!

I want allocated start times so that I don't have to wait in a long queue waiting for a start slot

Isn't the solution straightforward, for many of our events at least where start times are not pre-allocated?

You simply turn up to the event and choose your start time(s) at Registration . This could even be on a DIY basis, writing your name into a slot on a list ... used to work well in the good old days - why not now?

[Clive Coles]

Another reason DJM is the reluctance of clubs to utilise and maintain up to date information on the BOF fixture pages.

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=118&postcode=&radius=&filter_assoc=Select...&filter_club=&start_date_day=&start_date_month=&start_date_year=&end_date_day=&end_date_month=&end_date_year=&filter_level=Select...&bFilter=Filter

Nice and informative if you are a dog owner but wouldn't it be nice if the club whoever updated their club registration on the BOF system when the variety of courses on offer and a link to an event flyer was known.

Then we might find out the cost of entry as well without knowing which club was staging what !

I always used to refer to the BOF fixture list prior to travelling to a different part of the country on holiday. Now a days it is not worth the paper it is printed on.

[smf]

Another reason DJM is the reluctance of clubs to utilise and maintain up to date information on the BOF fixture pages.

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=118&postcode=&radius=&filter_assoc=Select...&filter_club=&start_date_day=&start_date_month=&start_date_year=&end_date_day=&end_date_month=&end_date_year=&filter_level=Select...&bFilter=Filter

Nice and informative if you are a dog owner but wouldn't it be nice if the club whoever updated their club registration on the BOF system when the variety of courses on offer and a link to an event flyer was known.

Then we might find out the cost of entry as well without knowing which club was staging what !

You mean like all the information that is included on the BOF fixtures page http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=80

The link you quote doesn't show all the information available.

[Clive Coles]

But you see SMF, it can if the club whatever will record the data on the BOF web site.

On the event registration record there are two places a URL can be stored. One for the event flyer/webpage and the other for the club website. Clubs don't bother to store the event flyer information. Instead the club URL is entered and shown instead in this field. On the fixture list link i gave in my original post it is the event URL the programme actually retrieves and displays.

There is also a freeform field on the event registration record which can be used to indicate what courses are being staged ~ that's in addition to the dreaded matrix. Again very few clubs enter data to this field.

On the Fixtures link SMF supplied, whilst it lists the fixtures, you have to go digging down various layers, and possible even switch across to the club web site if you want to find out the courses on offer and the cost of entry. And of course the format is not printable so you you need access to a computer if you subsequently want to check things out ( like a grid reference).

Speeking from memory the Fixture list format I provided is the format that is used in Compassport ~ not a very impressive shop window ( unless you are a dog owner).

Both the formats of fixture list we are discussing come up short of the mark as that many clubs do not enter data to the BOF site as arrangements begin to get defined. They assume by then those in the know will go looking on their Club website.

[smf]

But you see SMF, it can if the club whatever will record the data on the BOF web site.

No it doesn't, your link using the AIRE event on 12th June 2013 as an example only shows

Entry times: 6.30 - 7.30. Dogs: Under control. and the organisers details.

Whereas the Full BOF Fixtures list additionally has

the terrain as Park, woodland and campus, type as Sprint, Physical difficulty, Medium, Course descriptions and fees.

On the event registration record there are two places a URL can be stored. One for the event flyer/webpage and the other for the club website. Clubs don't bother to store the event flyer information. Instead the club URL is entered and shown instead in this field. On the fixture list link i gave in my original post it is the event URL the programme actually retrieves and displays.

Incorrect they are "Event specific website" url and "Final details web page" url.

There is also a freeform field on the event registration record which can be used to indicate what courses are being staged ~ that's in addition to the dreaded matrix. Again very few clubs enter data to this field.

Incorrect again, out of the first six events listed for 12th June 2013 five have used the freeform field.

On the Fixtures link SMF supplied, whilst it lists the fixtures, you have to go digging down various layers, and possible even switch across to the club web site if you want to find out the courses on offer and the cost of entry. And of course the format is not printable so you you need access to a computer if you subsequently want to check things out ( like a grid reference).

and that is the clubs fault because?

Speeking from memory the Fixture list format I provided is the format that is used in Compassport ~ not a very impressive shop window ( unless you are a dog owner).

and that is the clubs fault because?

Both the formats of fixture list we are discussing come up short of the mark as that many clubs do not enter data to the BOF site as arrangements begin to get defined. They assume by then those in the know will go looking on their Club website.

As shown above that is not the case. The link you provided does not show the information that is clearly available.

Check your facts before talking rubbish.

[Clive Coles]

Sorry SMF ~ Difficult to check some facts once you step down as a Fixtures secretary as you no longer have access to the fixtures entry system. I was on-board however when the new on-line was conceived and implemented. What we have today is significantly better than the initial releases of the fixture software but it still has some blemishes.

I have always argued that the price of entry and courses being offered should be quickly retrievable on any Fixture List or website. To achieve this on the printed or downloadable fixture lists sadly you need to make fuller use of the freeform text field as these formats are restrictive as to the fields that they contain.

On the question of the use of the 2 URL links some clubs do use the event URL to store their event flyer PDF's for example

18th
HH
SEOA
Level D

HertsARC Summer Series, Harpenden, Meet at Sports Centre Car Park, Amenbury Lane, Harpenden
Entry times: 7 - 7.20pm.
Organiser: Dave Tookey , hertsARC@happyherts.org.uk
http://www.happyherts.org.uk/hertsARC

It a question of how you interpret the term "Event specific website" ~ the field is there to be used if clubs wish to store and display their flyers ( in PDF form) on the fixture lists.

I think though you miss my point SMF ~ it is not a question of defending the present situation and trying to establish whose fault it is.

If publicity is to be successful in attracting potential punters it needs to be timely and informative. i believe Clubs are missing a trick if they fail to keep the BOF Fixture record up to date as plans evolve.

The regular orienteers will find out what they need to know by checking familiar paths around the various web sites. But sources such as the BOF Fixtures database and Compassport are our shop window to a wider community. If information is not quickly and easily found we are unlikely to attract many new recruits.