Telegraph Article

[AndyC]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10058182/Women-in-sport-We-wont-save-Olympic-legacy-with-rounders-and-Zumba.html
Interesting - we of course have a sport that is entirely suitable (with possible exception of Night Urban events) for those without a Y Chromosome -for example at Ray Demense we had almost 50 "W"'s.

[Mrs H]

I think that article is badly missing the point and rather compounds the problem (if there is a problem) rather than offers solutions.

Why do we want anyone to do sport? Because it is good for us. But the truth of the matter is that sport is only one manifestation of the aspect which is good for us. The real good thing is physical activity - it doesn't have to be sport.

Sporting icons - both men and women - do inspire and I'm not sure we need them for any other purpose than that.

We need people to be as active as possible for as long as possible, and if that means Zumba - which a lot of my non-orienteering contemporaries enjoy a great deal, both the activity and the social side then that is good enough and I don't see or feel any need to be patronising about it.

It frequently surprises me how lacking in confidence most middle aged women seem to be. I don't know why - maybe it just gets knocked out of them over the years by over bearing husbands and bolshy kids - it's sad. But you can't engineer women to enjoy sport. those that do will hopefully find a way to continue doing it - but for those who don't then Zumba is a lot better than nothing.

I 'm not sure why the author finds it sad that Jess is celebrated for her looks, any more so than Becks? Surely that is one of the great advantages of physical activity?

Here's a question. those married men orienteers out there whose wives do not take part - why don't they?

[Gnitworp]

Here's a question. those married men orienteers out there whose wives do not take part - why don't they?

Individuality?

[Mrs H]

Ha ha. Well if that is the reason then I would say the relationship's in trouble.

I'm more interested to know what it is about orienteering they don't like and what physical activity they do instead.

[andy]

Here's a question. those married men orienteers out there whose wives do not take part - why don't they?

this is an interesting one as I've had this debate with my other half. She actually really loves orienteering... but she hates the competitive aspect of it as she's definitely not a (fast) runner. She's happy going round a course, figuring it out at her own pace while taking the dog for a walk, but gets frustrated that her name is always at the bottom of the results list.
Incidentally, she'd be ok if we were going round a course together but I want to do the big boys course and often don't have time to do both...

Perhaps trail-o is the answer!

[Mrs H]

...and that would be wonderful too - although I fear our columnist might class it as the orienteering equivalent of Zumba which would be most unfair.

but isn't it interesting that although your other half likes orienteering even though she dislikes the competitive aspect, yet still cares that she comes last - do you think she is secretly quite competitive but finds it a bit scary to embrace that side of her nature so deliberately avoids the situation?

My personal feeling is that most people are basically competitive but not everyone enjoys being competitive.

[andypat]

My wife doesnt get on with maps so well.

[Oldman]

I think there is confusion about what you mean by "competitive".

I am not drawing the distinction between competitive and non-competitive as in the rules where eg someone is familiar with the terrain or the course. "Competitive" can mean "in contention to win", whereas I'd define it (for orienteering) as "taking part in an event that produces a ranking of all competitors from 1st to last".

Also, some people can't separate their ego from their performance, which has strange effects both amongst skilled competitors ("I was injured", or retiring deliberately to hide a poor on-the-day performance) and unskilled (or unfit) competitors (I don't like seeing my name last or near the bottom"). I've even had the inverse effect of this, deliberately myself avoiding saying I was injured (when I was) for fear others would judge me as being unwilling to accept I had had a bad run.

On quite a few occasions I've encountered concern being expressed (usually by women) about results being published. I've even heard of the request being made because the person concerned did not want others later to know she had even attended the event (should have been working??!).

If we want to encourage participation, perhaps there should be an option when entering of having your result excluded from those published? But it would need to be a final option, with no chance of reversing that decision after the run. The results could simply say "plus N others who requested their results not be published".

[andy]

but isn't it interesting that although your other half likes orienteering even though she dislikes the competitive aspect, yet still cares that she comes last - do you think she is secretly quite competitive but finds it a bit scary to embrace that side of her nature so deliberately avoids the situation?

oh yes, she is competitive - I never said she wasn't! It's because she's competitive but not a runner that she gets frustrated

[AndyC]

I've been discussing what a competitive orienteer is with one of my club mates and we disagree.
I see two definitions 1) being able to beat other people (even sometimes) 2) Trying to get round as well (quickly or accurately; choose) as that individual can.
There was another suggested definition (which will rapidly cause cries of disgust from some nopers) ; being in the top 3000 on the BO ranking list (I was 3010th at the time I'm now 2962).
btb MrsH my wife does orienteer (you've even met her at SinS) BUT she didn't really when our children were younger finding she didn't have time to concentrate on the sport. SInce they moved away I've sometimes found myself driving her to an event even though I knew I wasn't able to orienteer myself through injury or illness.

[EddieH]

I sometimes wonder about "training" events as it is pretty clear that the majority are competitive all the time. I do pilates and that is definitely competitive

My sister is naturaly a far better sports person than I am but she used to frustrate me enormously because she was so anti-competitve. Her visible not trying annoyed me enormously. I think that on average this is a trait of girls that they are far less competitve than boys.

The "lacking in confidence" that worries Mrs H probably affects the great majority of people who've had far more negative than positive stuff rammed into their subconscious. However in dealing with teenagers I find it a distinct advantage for those that are naturally competitive (feisty) in dealing with this. They still lack confidence but they have a deep down stubbornness and contrariness which can help them overcome their demons.

[Tatty]

I am definitely competitive, but I also do 5 sessions of Zumba a week. At the gym I go to Zumba is bringing into the facility women who otherwise don't do any exercie. Many of them then branch out into other exercise classes and/or the gym. Perhaps this is not considered sport, but it does mean these women are doing exercise. One of the major factors with women who have children is the matter of time. Bringing up a family, and probably working full or part time as well does not leave many hours in the day. I only really started doing exercise once my boys were well into their teens -I had to go to the gym to enable them to use their fitness bursaries. My husbands work meant he was rarely home before 7pm. Since I've retired it's been my way of life. But for many women surely doing a little something - be it Zumba or whatever - is better than nothing.

[ifititches]

strange, today a report also flipped into my in-box on the Olympic legacy and children's school sport
You can read it in full at
http://www.smith-institute.org.uk/file/ ... Survey.pdf
but the bit applicable to this thread is towards the end, giving the proportion of teachers who doubt that introducing more competitive sport will encourage the non-active to become active.
My local athletics club (Birchfield) has had a large increase in interest from youngsters post Olympics and has had to start extra training nights to cope with demand. How many will stay in at the critical 16-19 year old age group remains to be seen. I've been doing a series of recorded interviews with older Birchfield members recently, as part of a heritage project, and have been struck how many were talent spotted by coaches and teachers in the 1930s and 1940s at schools' competitions, and persuaded to come along to the club, and just how many did, despite difficult travelling conditions and nothing like the parental support that's expected these days. They've stayed in down the years as competitors and then coaches and officials.My (now adult) children are active Birchfield members, but would never have found their way in through that route, as inter-school competition had pretty much died by the 1990s.
Also striking was the influence of works' sports clubs in 1930s-1950s, with big companies, such as GEC running very active sport programmes, with encouragement to do sport/exercise during daytime lunchbreaks as well as evenings and weekends. This was just as applicable to the female workforce as to men.

[Mrs H]

Just to clarify I used the word competitive to mean wanting to do the best you can-and better than at least some others whom you may have identified as 'rivals' . Not in the sense of being a 'contender'.
....and yes Tatty. That was my point. Why pick on Zumba ?

[Monte]

So far its sporting success have all been male.

Bad research by the writer - Tracey Neville had a long international netball career.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracey_Neville