The least child-friendly event of the year?

[housewife]

Could this win the award for the least child-friendly event of the year?

http://www.marocscotland.org.uk/documen ... etails.pdf

Birsemore is an excellent area, with no suitable car parking near by. This Sunday's start is a 1.9k walk, with a finish similarly remote. My son is a really keen five year old, and asks all the time where the white course is ("sorry son, you are at a cross country race. These people are too thick to read a map.."). This weekend I think we are going to have to think up a suitably elaborate lie as to why he still can't go orienteering yet.

Either I have to walk a 5 year old and a three year old 1.9k to the start, around the 1,4k course, then 1.9k back, (all of which the three year old would want to do on my shoulders) then run 1.9k to the start, around the 5.3k course, and 1.9k back from the finish, or my husband has to run 1.9k to the start, run around his 7k-ish course, run 1.9k back to assembly, pick up the kids, then walk them 1.9k to the start of the white, 1.4k around the white and 1.9k back to the finish. If doing either of the options was not physically exhausting enough, it all has to be managed alongside a 2 hour start window not to mention and a £6 EOD fee regardless of whether you are an adult or a child (not many parents would pre-enter a 5 year old btw as their enthusiasims vary greatly). MAROC apologise for the lack of a string course.

I have some sympathy with MAROC. Its such a great area it would be a shame not to use it, and the assembly in the community centre sounds great, but come on, you can do better! MAROC is one of the leading clubs in Scotland when it comes to increasing participation, especially amongst children. How about letting parents park at the start / finish area wilst the child goes around the course, or letting one parent drop off or pick up. It wouldn't involve too many cars there are currently only 3 entrants on the white, and three entrants on the yellow - I bet their parents are regretting entering them now!

I really hope this event does win the least child-friendly event of the year prize, as I wouldn't want to think there will be another held that is quite as bad as this. I wonder why we have sports development officers when the events we are trying to get people along to are this poor. You don't have to sell the sport to my son - he is there already, and keen to go, the hard work is done - you just have to make it possible on a practical level!

[SeanC]

mmm, just thinking... segregated parking areas for parents with children under 10 could be a quick development win for orienteering... somewhere safe where the kids can play with each other and make friends. Eg often parking on forest rides is a bit miserable with all the cars going by, even if the walk to the start isn't too bad. It might be fair enough to expect parents to have to pre-book the space at extra cost so that organisers can ration the spaces. Don't know if that's possible at Maroc. Maybe it will snow and they can all go on a sledge.

[CeeJayEll]

I think we just have to accept that while orienteering is a great sport for all, not all events are going to be suitable for everybody. Some parks are great for small families, but not so hot for a black course. The first few years with children are tricky, then you get used to waiting at the finish for them to get back and then they leave home....ask my parents! So you miss a decade or so. Still got another 30 years at least...

[housewife]

Thanks for the suggestion. If considering taking a break from orienteering, and events like this coming Sunday just make it all the more likely. But would I come back in 10 years time? Unlikely, as you find other things to do. Most of the w35's are in a similar situation. By making a little more effort in 10 years time we could have them and their kids orienteering, instead of none of them. These are quick wins British orienteering could make in increasing participation, but still nothing is done...

[Lard]

Well done Claire.
High time we thought harder about why we're losing 21 to 40s - clearly you've hit some good points.

This isn't a Sport For All currently.

[SeanC]

To be fair to BOF, there has been a lot of collective effort getting the money from SportEngland for the "explorer" family orienteering thingy. What it will be like we'll have to see, but you can't deny the effort.

BOF could try and impose standards on level B and C events re things like car parking, but I can only imagine the fuss. It might work better at regional level... clubs get together to agree standards on such things for their regional competitions.

It's not just for families where classic regional events aren't always so good: eg:

- adult beginners/runners: less technical courses often too short (see other thread where I waffled on a lot).
- students/young adults/anyone without a car: limited/non-existant public transport options
- under 40's/more sociable types: no post event pub/cafe/event centre options (not in the Maroc case though)

Such things (as well as short walks to the start for families) would require some compromises from the majority over 45's (eg start/finish in less optimum positions, avoiding areas with unsuitable car parking, higher fees to subsidise a minibus from the nearest station). Would the majority be willing to sacrifice event quality or increase costs for the needs of the minority?

[housewife]

I am not asking for compromises to be made to td5 courses - I think that is the wrong way to go, I just ask that more thought be given to how the event could be made more accessible to all. I did the last lakes 5 day, and on day 2 walked for miles pushing a baby in a buggy and with a 2 year old on my shoulders in the pouring rain just to get to assembly and find there was a national trust car park right next to it. All that had to be done was to put in the program that those with small children should contact the organiser, then we could have found out about the car park and dropped the kids off before parking the car in the event car parking. Things like this would make a big difference. Local events in parkland are great for attracting newcomers, but I know at least a third of the w35l entrants at the 6 day have been orienteering for years, and now have children. These are the people that are being alienated. I don't want a new guideline in the big o-event organisers handbook that dictates things that might not be practical. It would be nice for some common sense to be used instead.

P.S. I realise after writing the two logistical options for getting my kids to do the white course, that the first option (me walking 5.2k before setting off for my 1.9k run to the start of my course) is not allowed. My run would be non-competitive as I would have gone around the white course before running and gained an unfair advantage. When will walking 5.2k with an 18kg toddler on my shoulders before running a td5 course EVER constitute an unfair advantage?

[CeeJayEll]

However, there might have to be compromises elsewhere, which won't suit everyone. Finding organisers is hard enough anyway. We just pick our events with care. These days the closing date is usually after the final details have appeared, so hopefully not too many surprises. We do Saturday events with one child each on the yellow, because the older one gets frustrated at waiting for the little one, then we help after; parents don't get a run. Then at bigger events keeny runs first, while less keen drags them both round the white /yellow and then runs. As you point out, technically non-comp, but no actual advantage..... No, I don't get to compete as often as I'd like, but we still go and all members of the family are happy, not just me, plus we put something back in as well, occasionally. And for the JK and BOC, well sorry kids, it's our turn. Do the kids ever play Saturday league footie in the same league as dad.......

[AndyC]

Just to let anyone interested that at the CSC round on Sunday at Slaley you CAN take kids round the white (or yellow) and then run because they are not in the competition and are in a different part of the forest to the TD4/5 courses, Junior (White, Yellow and Orange) start and finish are pretty near registration but I'm afraid the other courses are (for us) a long (20 minute) walk away.
Parking is a short walk away from Assembly but if you ask the marshal at the entrance to it he'll let you drop people off before driving through to park'
Does that get near to the definition of family friendly?

[NeilC]

When will walking 5.2k with an 18kg toddler on my shoulders before running a td5 course EVER constitute an unfair advantage?

At the start of many courses competitors face the choice of whether to take a direct route through green forest or a faster route round paths or whiter forest off the direct line. Someone who has had the opportunity to see how thick the forest is (by slowly walking alongside it), and of seeing which route others on their course have taken, will have an advantage.

Of course for many events no one will care about this, and the BOF rules allow individual events to vary the rules so there is no harm in asking the organiser if it's OK to shadow before. There will be some jobsworths who will say no but others who will use common sense and allow it.

[PhilJ]

Fortunately for us both our children are grown up, one in Univ and one enjoying himself in Portugal this week
However looking back over the past 18+ years what struck me was the lack of foresight by organisers/planners/controllers to even consider families and young children. For example how may parents that have shadowed a youngster around a Yellow course has come across a kite on top of a knoll, just off the path, so all ok td1 etc but with a 3 foot earthbank infront of it, easy for us but not for a small child.
Obviously some officials may not have been blessed with children so have not seen these obstacles first hand and experienced what "housewife" explains. For families to be included in this sport, officials need to "think" like a family. How would you get little johnny and katie to the start, shadow them, husband/wife have a run, hand them over etc.
There has been a push by BO for Organiser training much like controllers, and an even bigger push back by the general O'ers, but without a better understanding of the needs of families to organisers this will just continue. Every event I have organised, most recently Day2 at CROESO was seen as a parent. Logistics are always an issue but if seen from a families point of view first then events can cater for them.
So as an example Day 2 at CROESO was a problem as there were 2 starts in opposite directions, so we had a long start window and open starts for families, that went some way to help, plus we organised a very large marquee where the children, and anyone else, could be kept safe and out of the rain etc.

[AndyC]

I'll just say I've been known to get on my knees while planning white courses to try for a child's eyeview and one time (as my children are now adults) "borrowed" a child to test a course.

[andy]

I think you're spot on...

However, I see it all too often when it comes to organising races:

1. Have great ideas
2. Some 'authority' stomps on said idea
3. Not enough time/inclination to come up with alternative
4. Settle

I've seen it a fair bit the 6 days and even, to a lesser extent so far, with the world champs

What's the solution? I think the sports either needs to simplify races or go professional.

[Arnold]

I'm in exactly the same situation as housewife, two small kids aged 5 and 2, and hubby and wife both still keen to run long courses.

So I totally sympathise, and I do think often small changes could be made that would make an event much more attractive to young children (and their parents). Like offering parking options, or pointing out playgrounds/activities nearby, or giving flexibility on start times.

Having said that, I also agree that not all events can be suitable for all interests and some events will not be that suitable for young kids. In an ideal world you would have parking, start, finish and string course all co located, ideally next to some indoor space with hot food and space to run around.

But it's not always possible, or at least not possible while still planning the best courses. I'm happy to accept that and as most entry deadlines are now quite late, normally I can look at the final details before deciding to go. Distance to start / finish, presence of string course, flexibility of start times, parking arrangements and what's nearby all contribute to the decision. There's also lots of fun to be had (at least near London) in trying to figure out what other activities might be very close to the race for afterwards - there was a great pub across the road from the Chiltern Challenge parking last weekend, for example, and we've had llama parks, giant playgrounds and allsorts in the past.

I know it's a circular argument, but if you only get 5 people on the white course you're not going to massively compromise the rest of your courses, or hugely go out of your way to make it easier to attend. I'm fine with that and for us at least 3 out of 4 events will be OK to attend.

PS: The above doesn't apply to major events where I do think it all needs to be reasonably manageable, and there shouldn't be anything to put off young families.

[madmike]

I'll just say I've been known to get on my knees while planning white courses to try for a child's eyeview

I do it all the time controlling whites and yellows - getting harder to get back up though

A thing you often see in various points of Europe, that might help with Housewife's original point ,is a strange thing called a Creche - not sure whether you in UK are familiar with the concept but you could give it a try!