Prize eligibilty

[NeilC]

Well done roger, you are indeed a worthy Champion.

At least my trophy was bigger than Roger's!

So Graeme what happens at the Scottish Champs if a W40 (say) beats a W35 on the same course. Does the W40 get both trophies?

[AndyC]

We're all ignoring the Elephant in the room and getting wound up about its droppings.
Prize allocation (like CSC course allocation) is based on the assumption that we peak physically in M/W21 and our ability declines progressively as we get older (or younger) from that group.
Now orienteering is a sport with a big mental component so experience will distort that assumption but the real issue is that our numbers in age groups aren't even or even follow the expected pattern of peaking in the big group of W/M21-in fact that can be one of the smaller groups- and declining on each side.
So unless we change the trend and introduce/retain more young/er adults in the sport or decide that the peak of the pyramid isn't in W/M21 people winning "the wrong age group" will become an increasing feature as the average age of competitive orienteers increases

[Arnold]

I've always argued that "running up" eg from M45 to M35 shouldn't be allowed on the basis that younger age doesn't necessarily mean faster - with young kids (often) a more unsettled career (often) and the need for more sleep, 35-40 is a much tougher age at which to run fast than 45-50

[mharky]

We're all ignoring the Elephant in the room and getting wound up about its droppings.
Prize allocation (like CSC course allocation) is based on the assumption that we peak physically in M/W21 and our ability declines progressively as we get older (or younger) from that group.
Now orienteering is a sport with a big mental component so experience will distort that assumption but the real issue is that our numbers in age groups aren't even or even follow the expected pattern of peaking in the big group of W/M21-in fact that can be one of the smaller groups- and declining on each side.
So unless we change the trend and introduce/retain more young/er adults in the sport or decide that the peak of the pyramid isn't in W/M21 people winning "the wrong age group" will become an increasing feature as the average age of competitive orienteers increases

Whoa whoa whoa, I think there are a few issues with your elephant.

Prize allocation is based on the assumption that the maximum physical peak for an athlete is in M/W21.

Obviously if you don't start training until you're 35 then you will be fitter then than you were at 25. It doesn't take an exercise physiologist to work that out. However, a hypothetical athlete who starts training at an appropriate age and continues to do so throughout life without interruption will reach their peak in M/W21.

The peak of the pyramid is M/W21, you seem to be talking about the widest part of the pyramid.

I don't understand what you are actually proposing. Are you saying that as many British orienteers started late, they will peak late, and as a consequence M/W45 is the peak of the pyramid? So I guess I should be able to enter M45 at the JK then? That's what it sounds like you are saying.

[The Loofa]

35-40 is a much tougher age at which to run fast than 45-50

come back in 10 years and tell me that. You'll then be at an age when fitness is more dependent on the length of the gaps between injuries than any other factor

[frog]

We were debating this at the ESOA committee again as I'm coming round to Graeme's view that the W45 prize should go to the first woman over 45 in that course. This means that you get fewer trophies with no-one eligible as well.
It does mean that the same fast people tend to win the trophies, but there is a good reason for that.
One of the reasons given for giving the trophy only to the women in the W45-50 age group is that it means people who don't normally win trophies get a go at having one. It can also bias the trophy winners to older participants if you use Graeme's method as if the W45 trophy goes to a 50 year old then if you have a one trophy per competitor rule the W50 trophy goes to the next fastest woman over 50 who may be significantly slower than the W45 woman who just missed out on the W45 trophy.
I was glad that they went for the traditional way of awarding trophies at the recent Scottish Score as I now have my first ever trophy on the sideboard. If it had gone to the fastest woman over 45 Margaret Dalgleish would have it.
There is a good reason that this is my first orienteering trophy though and I'm not sure letting people who don't normally win things have their moment of glory is a good reason to stick to the status quo.

[graeme]

I hadn't expressed a view on this thread yet, but in case you missed it last year I did a survey of what people wanted, and found that...

1/ M/W21 are the premier classes people would want to win above all.
2/ Failing that, people would rather win their age group than a different age group.
3/ People are generally not embarrassed to take a prize despite finishing behind someone who already has a prize. Nor are they embarrassed to take multiple prizes.
4/ People are embarrassed to take a prize ahead of someone eligible who doesn't have one.

There are two systems which meet these constraints.

1/ You win all the prizes you're eligible for. Simple.
2/ You go down the list handing each potential winner the appropriate prize*. This seems to be the norm in road/hill races.

* i.e. 21/ their preferred age group / anything else they're eligible for.

So taking Angela's example of the ladies here.
http://www.solwayorienteers.co.uk/Resul ... score.html

System 1
W35-60 Margaret Dalgleish

System 2
W35 Heather Thompson
W40 Sheila Strain
W45 Angela Dixon
W50 Lindsey Knox
W55 Janice Nisbet
W60 Margaret Dalgleish

Given that one can only have so many buffs, I'm with Angela in thinking that spreading prizes around is a good idea. The "Form-filling" approach which seems to have been adopted would overlook Sheila and a couple of other W55s until getting to Judy Bell who put W40 on her entry, the ninth finisher. Nice for Judy, but the others might feel a bit, er, rogered

[frog]

Now your system 2 is getting a bit complicated for the organisers, although it is maybe simpler than if the first woman over 40 got the W40 prize etc then the winners would be
W35 Margaret
W40 Janice
W45 me
W50 Lindsay
W55 Sheila
W60 Trish

which leaves Heather as second woman overall in 60 mins without a prize which seems unfair.
Piling up Margaret with as many trophies as she could carry might have been most entertaining, was it Crackerjack that used to award prizes that way?

[graeme]

Now your system 2 is getting a bit complicated for the organisers

I don't see why. You have the list of results, you start at the top and call up the winner.

Course winner is Margaret (appropriate recognition there). Hand her the W60 prize.
Then you go down the results list looking for women and dishing out the prizes
Runner up is Heather W35 - (from now on prizes are only there for over 40s)
Janice W55
Angela W45
Lindsey W50
Sheila W40 (Now the youngest remaining prize is W65)
Eleanor W65
Janet W70

And deep down in Englandshire...

NeilC M50
Gavin M55
Mark M45
... and then maybe roger will take the orienteering seriously rather than flaying himself round a cross-country race in the afternoon .

[andypat]

Of course Graeme's system does assume that there are prizes of roughly equitable value for each of these age categories. And it does seem to require some sort of jiggery pokery still to give Sheila the W 40 prize??

To me it goes back to the same basic problem that unless you stick to the age categories you simply don't know who you are competing against. That just seems daft to me. The solution seems to lie with the organiser of the competition making this clear beforehand so we can get on with racing!

[EddieH]

Surely M50 means over 50 not 50 to 54.

Whatever system is used I don't feel really strongly although my preference has not changed with this discussion.

However the system used at the only White Rose I have attended in this century seemed bizarre beyond belief. I entered M35 but because I was over 40 a prize I might have got went to a youngster who finished behind me. In fact by entering a younger age group anyone made themselves non-competitive for the event

[andypat]

Surely M50 means over 50 not 50 to 54.

It does Eddie - I checked the rules - but that being the case it doesnt seem to make a whole lot of sense to have so many age categories.

Personally I'd prefer age categories for big events to be fixed or enter open. And thats coming from the pespective of someone who doesnt trouble the podium. Seems like those who like to be able to run up are all potential winners. Fair enough if that reflects a point of view.

Graeme's Option 2 is not I think allowable under the rules

Unless specified in the rules of the competition, a competitor may enter and compete in only one class at any one event.

since it assumes that everyone on the same course is entered and competing in every available class, and a bit like Schroedingers cat (I appreciate I'm on thin ice with this analogy) until everyone has finished and the results "box" is opened you dont know which state or class you have triumphed.

[EddieH]

So Andy you are telling me that I am not alowed to run a long course because I want to run further

As you may be aware I've run black in the SOLs this year - i.e. M21 or open. I know that the only concievable chance I have of winning is if virtually no-one turns out. I can assure you I am not in it pot hunting, (nor for that matter ranking points searching).

[andypat]

Not at all Eddie. Defintely black is your colour.

The point I was making about the rules is that they dont allow you to enter or compete in more than 1 class at an event. So the point at which the class/eligibility issue should be sorted out is at entry not during results.
ie If Sheila in Graeme's example entered as a W50, but beats all the W35 on the same course, she is still the W50 winner. She cannot serendiptously win W35 instead unless she entered as a W35. Thats what i think the rules suggest?

[andy]

So taking Angela's example of the ladies here.
http://www.solwayorienteers.co.uk/Resul ... score.html

System 1
W35-60 Margaret Dalgleish

System 2
W35 Heather Thompson
W40 Sheila Strain
W45 Angela Dixon
W50 Lindsey Knox
W55 Janice Nisbet
W60 Margaret Dalgleish

My mum has enough buffs already and there isn't enough space on her mantle piece for option 1. So option 2...!