Prize eligibilty

[keever]

The general principle is that a runner is only eligible in the class that they entered. There are good reasons for that ...

There are no good reasons for that.

There's plenty of good reasons for that! Otherwise eligibility for prizes comes down to which classes run the same course, which is pointless and arbitrary.

This is one of my bugbears with the set up of orienteering - I know lots of people (usually the best orienteers) disagree but if you are going to have age classes I cannot understand why its OK to pick and choose which "age class" you want to run in - its not an age class then is it? Its confusing and dispiriting for people in the weaker age brackets (eg M35) to get beaten for trophies by people in stronger age categories running up. For me if you dont want to run your own age category, then run open, or run non-comp.

I think you've misunderstood me.
What I'm suggesting is you should win whatever prizes you are eligible for. No matter which age class you entered.
As an M21, I stand to win no extra prizes by this setup and possibly lose all of my potential prizes to older/younger orienteers.

[keever]

I think you've misunderstood me.

Or rather, I could have made my point clearer.

[roadrunner]

Where you've got different age classes sharing a course, personally I'd go for the system that many road races use:

1. Prizes for the overall winner (2nd, 3rd, male/female etc according to the event) regardless of age.

2. Prizes for the 1st (2nd, 3rd, etc) in an age category, where (for example) M40 is interpreted as male and between 40 and 49, so an M50 can't win this, nor can a W40.

3. No-one can win more than one prize; if you're eligible for more than one (e.g. you're an M40 on a course shared with M35 and you win), you get the prize of higher value and the other one goes to the next best person.

Effectively, this means that overall prizes go to the best on the course and age category prizes to the best (or next best) in that category. In an orienteering context, it would mean that you would only run up if you thought you were in with a chance for the overall prizes (or didn't have a hope of winning any of them).

[NeilC]

A criticism of UK orienteering has been that clubs tend to put on events rather than competitions, and then try to bolt competitions onto those events.

So consider starting by asking: what do we want to achieve with this competition? That answer might be the best W40-W45 night orienteer from one of the "northern" associations. Alternatively it might be the best over 40 male orienteer in the UK over a classic distance. Events can then be designed to achieve those aims. In the latter case it would of course mean all age groups from 40 and over running the same course (as in many road/fell races).

However for various reasons (including the fact that most orienteering competitions, unlike fell/road races, are not mass start) then events are broken up into different courses. The number of courses depends on a lot of different factors such as entry numbers/landowner specifications/start window availability. Things can then start to get messy - the W40s might run the same course as the W45s one year but not the next. A strong W45 might be capable of beating all the W40s in both years but can only be crowned W40 champion in one of those years. Perhaps that's OK but it has to be accepted that in the year that they run different courses then the winner of the W40 may not be the best W40+ orienteer there at the event. Again that may be OK but it can mean that the W40 champion is decided by organisational constraints rather than ability. That's one of the reasons why the decision was made to restrict winners to the class entered, rather than to all for which they are eligible (with some junior elite exceptions).

[andypat]

Keever - I think I probably digressed from the original point too much.

[EddieH]

On balance I am in NeilC's camp.

However I once received the Midlands night champs trophy and a prize for winning M21L despite the fact that I was beaten by the top M20 and by the top M40 who entered M35!

Roadrunner's solution also has its problems. I once one 1st Vet at the Craig Dubh hill race (about £30 and a bottle of whisky) despite finishing 8th when the top 3 were all vets and by chance 4th to 7th were all under 40. The 3 vets won the top 3 prizes.

Keever's solution is logically sound, but I certainly don't favour it in particular as in o we are normally talking about titles rather than prizes. Winning multiple titles just seems absurd to me. It s also wasteful of opportunities to publish the sport in local media - (up here frequent reports of successes have definitely enhanced the standing and local knowledge of the sport). Finally, whilst I didn't feel a huge thrill about either of my examples above I know that for those unacustomed to winning anything it can be a great thrill, can enhance their self belief, and keep them working in the sport. Why would you wish to take that away to make one person M21, M35 and M40 champion?

[graeme]

So, given that Rob Lee is really M50, who should be Scottish Score Champion?

In 2010...
http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/so ... 1-nov-2010

In 2011...
http://fvo.org.uk/media/events/2011/nov ... ,_w21.html

In 2012...
http://www.solwayorienteers.co.uk/Resul ... score.html

[smf]

So, given that Rob Lee and I are really M50, who should be Scottish Score Champion?

In 2010...
http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/so ... 1-nov-2010

In 2011...
http://fvo.org.uk/media/events/2011/nov ... ,_w21.html

In 2012...
http://www.solwayorienteers.co.uk/Resul ... score.html

2010 - Tom Ryan who entered as M20, you were second entered as an M35.
2011 - Felix Spaeth who entered as M20, you didn't enter
2012 - Robert Lee who entered as M21, you didn't enter.

[Jon X]

But not...
2012 - Kirsten Strain, who entered as a W21??

[andypat]

That probably depends on what class she entered though. And that probably depends on how the competition was set up.

We had the scenario at the Strathaven Urban race where Claire Ward entered M OPen. Since I was handing out the prizes I'd a quick look a the rules and found

2.4.5 Women may compete in Men’s classes but Men may not compete in Women’s classes.


1 Simon Gardner CLYDE M 1988 00:39:16 1311
2 Claire Ward ESOC F 1977 00:42:31 1227
3 Andrew Lindsay ESOC M 1994 00:46:08 1133

So if Claire had actually been trying (sorry Simon ) she'd have got the BUFF.


Ths rule is also probably relevant to the curent debate

2.4.6 Unless specified in the rules of the competition, a competitor may enter and compete in only one class at any one event.

[graeme]

... a form filling-in contest.

Well done roger, you are indeed a worthy Champion. Back when I was your age...

[cbg]

An M50, beaten by 3 x M50s and 3 x M55s, winning the M45 category seems perverse.

[graeme]

beaten by 3 x M50s and 3 x M55s, winning the M45 category seems perverse.

So how many M50s and M55s do you think the M45 champion should have been beaten by then?

[Roger]

An M50, beaten by 3 x M50s and 3 x M55s, winning the M45 category seems perverse.

Agreed.

[Gnitworp]

A relatively minor anomaly: Can I have the M60 trophy please?

Sorry, I don't get out much.