Community O+

[frog]

Surprised to see no discussion on this which is p7-9 of Focus, but maybe like me some folk are a bit busy at the moment to read Focus.
It sounds as though BOF is looking for funding for this and getting ? non-o related organisations to run a series of events for them ? only in England.
They are looking at mass start score events near urban centres.

It sounded interesting although if they are only looking at fees of £1-£3 and BOF will be wanting a levy of £1 (unfair on club events if they aren't) then if they are wanting online entry systems and SI and online results plus a waterproof map, toilets and access to refreshments they will struggle to have these events make any money, especially when you factor in a contribution to mapping costs and a private company running them.

Anyone been involved in these discussions and know more about how likely these are to actually happen and how they plan to make it pay?

[SeanC]

BOF development committee discussed this on Saturday. I guess your regional rep would be a good place to ask for a viewpoint from your region. I hope Eddie doesn't mind me making these points:

- Definately true: it's an application for money to SportEngland. There is no decision from them yet but there will be in the next few months. BO are keeping us informed of the application so far...

These are my own observations, ie nothing to do with BO/BOF or Saturday's meeting, just me, ie idle nopesport chit chat.

Saxons did something very similar to Explorer (ie the scores aimed at families with younger children) this summer in parks/woods around Tunbridge Wells. It was really successful and easy to organise. Public toilets and public cafe's are free of charge. Waterproof maps aren't that expensive.

Kent County Council have been organising occasional orienteering events using permanent orienteering courses for a few years. They don't call it orienteering but they do get reasonable turnouts because they distribute an events newsletter to everyone in Kent, so their publicity works. From their viewpoint they don't have to pay land access, and the event making a profit isn't the main point (other factors might be publicising the relevant country park, encouraging people to visit the cafe and spend money there, doing something that is good for their voters/is popular and gets votes).

Kent Night Cup events (the easier night events are perhaps similar to the "Run Challenge") started out as completely free as a loss leader before charging a few years later when the series was established. Maybe details like fees aren't set in stone for ever?

The two market segments (younger juniors and younger adults) aren't well catered for by our events in orienteering (at least around my way). Explorer sounds more attractive for me as a parent than most of the events I organise.

It will be interesting to follow what happens. I think clubs shouldn't see this as a threat but an opportunity. If you've got someone, whoever, running this stuff locally, then think of a way to encourage some of the participants into mainstream orienteering. The juniors doing explorer will get older and more confident and (some of) the young adults doing Run Challenge will eventually want something more technically or physically challenging.

[Spookster]

It will be interesting to follow what happens. I think clubs shouldn't see this as a threat but an opportunity. If you've got someone, whoever, running this stuff locally, then think of a way to encourage some of the participants into mainstream orienteering. The juniors doing explorer will get older and more confident and (some of) the young adults doing Run Challenge will eventually want something more technically or physically challenging.

That's pretty much what I said to fellow SYO committee members on Monday evening. Some of them had read Focus and interpreted this as a threat to our own club activities. But I agree with you that if these events (which aren't called orienteering) attract say 100 newcomers each time, and just 5%-10% of them are keen and want to do it (or something harder) again, then there is a source of potential new club members and new participants in "real orienteering", or whatever you prefer to call it.

[graeme]

I have posted this before, this is hopefully where we're heading...
http://www.streetscramble.com/
http://getlostxx.com/
Both of those commercial organisations are run by experienced orienteers. They don't have to pay levy. But sometimes they do. On the last one, you had to go 5k out of your way to register (at a sponsoring sports shop...), and the results are done using attackpoint.

[frog]

Why should we have to pay a levy at our "come and try it" events if these organisations don't? Will clubs stop bothering with CATIs if an organisation is doing this on their patch as CATIs in non densely populated areas often make a loss anyway (ours have recently) and will make more of a loss when the levy comes in.

[AndyC]

You won't pay levy on an "activity"...

[smf]

You won't pay levy on an "activity"...

I hope you are not suggesting these "events" should be registered as "activities".

[SeanC]

This gives the opportunity to target CATI's (or series designed for new to intermediate orienteers) at the 35-70 age group where (in our experience anyway) they are likely to be more successful. This also gives the potential for more successful events ... you can dispense with the white option for under 12's say and do a "long yellow" for adult newcomers, or an easy score aimed at the older adults. I guess this could even be in the same park as the Explorer event run maybe an hour later or before... so clubs are there to sell their mainstream orienteering?

Using the Kent CC example, I'm sure their "event" wasn't registered with BOF. But then again it's their wood, they paid for the posts, they paid their own insurance, they paid their rangers to turn up and run the show.

If it's bringing in people into the sport and doing something about our dubious looking future, then I'm not sure if I'm too fussed if someone somewhere ends up making a small wage out of it and has a tax/levy break.

[Paul Frost]

I agree with Graeme that Street Scramble looks like it could be fun, good exercise and competitive, but it's not orienteering.

Some of those that do it may be tempted to try "normal orienteering" and that would be great.
But we are members of the British Orienteering Federation, who as the national body should be supporting orienteering and it's development, and providing a structure for people to develop their personal skills and provide a pathway for talented people to progress to competing at the highest levels. Coaching and quality events are key parts in developing those skills
We are hosting the "World Orienteering Championships" in 2015, not the "World fun run around the streets and parks Championships". So shouldn't the British Orienteering Federation leave creating a new sport to someone else, and concentrate on serving the needs and wants of the existing membership?

It would be nice to think that we were going to pull out all the stops to ensure that British orienteers had the best support, training and coaching opportunities leading up to WOC. But it seems that chasing some money to develop a non-orienteering sport is more important.
I know there are challenges in funding it after UK sport pulled the plug, but getting money for RunChallenge and Xplorer isn't going to help, it's a distraction.

I also noticed the repeated use of the word "professional" in the write up in Focus. That participants will expect "professional organisers" and events to be "professional and well run" is mentioned. The expectations are going to be high, and if they are met what happens if/when they go to a "normal" orienteering event?

If commercial companies are expected to be deliverers then the low £1-£3 fees are not likely to be very profitable/attractive to them. Looking at the entry fees for most "professional" running and adventure type events low entry fees are not a common feature.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy for someone to develop such a event structure and I may even take part in it, but it's not orienteering as recognised around the world and what people will be coming to Scotland for in 2015.

[SeanC]

Honestly I think you can be relaxed about this Paul. Simplified orienteering for junior school aged children is just what's needed for this age group. And competing sports are offering popular junior versions to get them keen at a young age. For the young adults SLOW is probably the most successful club in the country at recruiting M/W21's and most of their events are street and park O's.

Converting these keen juniors and young adults into "mainstream" orienteers would be a nice problem to have. We can look at what works now. There's some great stuff going on in NE Scotland with junior development I understand. For the adults part of the problem now is that loan M/W21's turning up at many clubs need to feel comfortable hanging round people 20-40 years older.... plus there is the problem of getting to know people at colour coded events. If you can get a block of people to join from the RunChallenge at once then that's problem solved. Again look at what's working now... SLOW do "hot picks" where they pick the best classic O events and arrange a post event pub to meet up afterwards. If organisers of regional events provided minibus/taxi options from the nearest stations that would be a big help too.

[King Penguin]

It seems to me that BOF are jumping from one allegdly "pefect-solution-one-size-fits-all" to another. For the last 18 months / 2 years it has been Community O - same place every week - believe us it's the only way to grow the sport. Many had doubts, myself included, but were prepared to give it a go and time to work.
One month BOF are ramming lots of new venues down our throats, then the next they are unilaterally terminating them, with no notice / discussion.
My fear is that this latest fad may go the same way - seen as the perfect elixir / only solution for a short while, then dropped just as quickly.

[Gross]

My fear is that this latest fad may go the same way - seen as the perfect elixir / only solution for a short while, then dropped just as quickly.

To be fully expected from an organisation with no real passion for our sport & a list of paid employees that are non orienteers. It would seem they follow the 'yellow brick road' of Sport England cash (which also pay's their wages & keeps them in a job).... or this is what it looks like to an outsider.

[andypat]

No doubt you will be publishing your own blueprint for success on here in due course Gross?

[frog]

re the BOF employees who aren't orienteers comment I see BOF are planning to have 1/3 of their directors "independant" which means non-orienteers. Also in Focus. I'm not clear why this is suddenly a requirement but it seems a strange direction to be going down. This isn't the GMC we are talking about, just an organisation that helps run our sport and hobby.
I think the new initiative may introduce more recruits to proper orienteering than the meeting once a week in a building initiative but think clubs will have to be involved in it as well to build up contacts, chat to people doing community O, hand out fliers etc otherwise it will just turn into a parallel sport.

[andypat]

re the BOF employees who aren't orienteers comment I see BOF are planning to have 1/3 of their directors "independant" which means non-orienteers. Also in Focus. I'm not clear why this is suddenly a requirement but it seems a strange direction to be going down. This isn't the GMC we are talking about, just an organisation that helps run our sport and hobby.

Might it be a requirement from potential funding sources such as Sport England from a governance perspective?