The Demise of Elite Junior Orienteering Competitions

[EddieH]

Well Mharky you have my 100% backing on this one. I'm not sure that I'll be of much practical assistance but I agree with everything you've written here (bar some of the diplomacy ).

[Mrs H]

Well thanks to the information kindly supplied by Oldman it seems that the selectors are

Junior World Orienteering Championships (JWOC), 6th to 14th July, Kosice, SLOVAKIA Selector: Sarah Hague Selection Advisors: Duncan Archer, Elizabeth Furness, Helen Marsden, NTDC

I wonder what "selection advisor" and "NTDC" means - do they select or do they just advise? but I guess they are changed from year to year. It looks like Sarah is the key to this, I don't think we've ever met, does anyone know Sarah well enough for a chat or at least to alert her to this thread? That might be a start.

[andy]

I wonder if the staff at BOF HQ are reading this (I'm told they do read nopesport) and thinking "Yes! Now we don't have to do anything about this, they'll run it for us!" Either way if it gets junior orienteering in the UK to the point where top international racers are being produced, it'll be a success.

[andy]

I wonder what "selection advisor" and "NTDC" means

Someone told me about this not that long ago, in this example Sarah Hague has the final say and the others are exactly that, advisers. No idea what NTDC means.

[mharky]

National Talent Development Coach

[J.Tullster]

Aye, have to agree with Mharky and others on this one. The FCC was quality. Bring it back in it's old form!

[Peter H]

Well, I'm excited by this and I'm not a junior either, but I do know many juniors who would find this format fun and want to go for it. I agree with many of you in saying that in the past it was one of the highlights of the year. The FCC is clearly not inspiring much enthusiasm at present with those who it's aimed at.
However, it doesn't make sense to have 2 similar junior competitions like this, so maybe we should find out if BOF are prepared to adopt the format suggested? Reading the comments about the National O Series 2013, it appears that a decision has been made that it will be over 19 races with 10 to count. This seems unlikely to be much more appealing to juniors than the current 10 races + autumn final.

Will the JWOC selectors use it for selection? An email to Sarah Hague should answer that.

I really liked the idea of qualifying races spread over 3 separate weekends spaced 2 weeks apart in 3 different countries (Wales, Scotland, England), all on quality terrain with a final in the Lake District.
Some suggestions
If BOF won't change the FCC, call it the O-sport Junior Cup or Junior Champions Cup?
I think you should drop BUCS as firstly it is a closed event aimed at students, (and it is a better event for students if we don't interfere) and secondly without courses available for adults, there will be a reluctance for parents to provide transport.
Have one class for 17-20s, boys run brown, and girls blue (the JK has combined 17-20 age classes on the same courses).
Open to anyone to enter (if overseas runners want to run, so much the better - no restrictions on nationality).
No age restrictions (why can't a 16 run the FCC?)
4 races from 7 to count (means you only need attend 2 weekends)
Final can be entered by anyone (why restrict it to only 15?)
Reverse start order for the finals, 3 min intervals. (Long start based on middle results)
Special courses for the finals (subject to LOC agreeing for next year)
Prizegiving with a bit of razzmatazz and bunting.

I am willing to get sponsorhip for cash prizes for this format, as I think it will be hugely popular. (£100+ for the winners)

Are there any Nopesporters out there on the fixtures or competitions committee prepared to find out if it's not too late to get this implemented for next year?

[andypat]

I agree with everything you've written here (bar some of the diplomacy ).

Nice one Eddie - nearly choked on my fererro rochers!!

[tomtom]

One thing I would like to see is that at every urban race there should be an 'Elite sprint' course - a sprint race planned to World Champs guidelines. Full length urban races are not beneficial or worthwhile for elites. We have many good sprint areas in the UK and therefore have no excuse for not being a top sprint nation, if we actually had more than a couple of sprint races a year.

[mharky]

That is a good idea, I've thought about that before. Could even have 2 IOF distance sprints to get "value for money".

I wonder what clubs will be brave enough to have a proper sprint class at their next urban..

[SeanC]

Not sure if the title of this thread is quite right. Perhaps Destruction of FCC?

I'm trying to think of all the barriers to my son (age 5) becoming an elite orienteer in the future (not that I'm fussed, and he's handicapped by the genes inherited from his Dad ).

- limited to non-existant junior coaching/orienteering games locally (compared to other sports... he'll be starting hockey mornings in 2 weeks time for example, he'll need to be M12 before he can join the SE junior squad and then only if he's already at a good standard).
- few juniors locally = few people of his own age to socialise with
- venues generally not suitable until he's aged about 10-12. Events generally held in large parks/forests organised with the majority of competitors (ie aged over 50) in mind.
- competition from bigger, better funded and organised sports

and when he's older

- increasingly ageing local orienteering population... will he want to compete against people mostly over 50 when he's an image conscious teenager?
- few juniors locally = few people of his own age to socialise with
- limited opportunities to race other juniors in big events (since age class competitions have become rare at regional/badge events).
- not enough juniors in local clubs to enter the dedicated junior competitions (Peter Palmer Relays, YBT etc).
- few junior competitions at the regional level.
- problems with national competitions (FCC cup, ranking lists not possible until he's 16 etc).

These problems reside at the club, region and BOF level, not just BOF... and to be honest unless the problems at the club and region level are fixed, fixing the FCC is only going to impact the small number who get over all the other barriers.

Some things BOF have done definately go in the helped category... for example the Development Fund grant to the regional junior squads. I'm also wondering having written this that the "club talent squad" approach (which I think is a BOF initiative) might be the right one. All these small clubs (including my own)... perhaps it would be better to direct juniors to the nearest big club with a junior squad rather than the local ones with none? *

* this comment may not be popular with my club... but as a parent this is probably what I'd look to do.

[NeilC]

That is a good idea, I've thought about that before. Could even have 2 IOF distance sprints to get "value for money".

I wonder what clubs will be brave enough to have a proper sprint class at their next urban..

Whatever the official guidelines say, as an official I'm much more concerned about traffic at a 12 minute sprint event than at a 40 minute urban. At the few big international sprints that I've experienced vehicular traffic has been stopped in the race terrain. Thus whilst the idea is good, the practicalities may not be for many of the urban areas that we use. Perhaps I'm being over cautious but no elite sprint at the next urban event that I'm planning (it will be a gaffled mass start event though, at night and under the festive lights of a vibrant seaside town. http://www.brightoncityrace.org.uk)

[graeme]

I ran the sprint at euromeeting, and there was no shortage of traffic there

Livingston (Oct 6th) will have a two courses of elite sprint length. One is "proper technical": as hard as we can make it, the other is more like I experienced at euromeeting. None of the terrain has been used for competitions previously and there are no significant road crossings (just cul de sacs and carparks like the JK). Courses are sufficiently different that if you want to run twice to get "value for money" it will be worth it (just ask me to sort out a free second run)

It's not rocket science - you just enter the course with the distance you want to run! I'm sure aspiring elites can survive without SOUL points. I wonder who'll be brave enough to enter?

[mharky]

A bit off the topic but...

I think your implying that 15 minute sprints races are run at faster speeds than 40 minute urban races, and therefore there is a higher chance of an accident happening.

Any evidence for this?

Do you have any idea how fast Murray or Scott will run on a long road leg on an urban course?

IOF sprint races have shorter legs, and far more twists and turns to slow the runners down. Urban races often have long legs with large stretches of very fast dead running.

It would be good to actually find something like that out, rather than just making assumptions.

[Kitch]

Going back to the flipping topic.......

Nice one Mharky.

If this race series comes about then I'll start the prize fund with £100.
It'd be great to see prizes extend to at least the top 6 in each class.
Certificates to all finalists? recognition of top perfomances from younger runners.
anyone else feeling generous ?
I'm thinking a total fund of £500 across the 4 classes would be great, more even better.