The Demise of Elite Junior Orienteering Competitions

[mharky]

I have been through all of it as a junior orienteer. The Future Champions Cup was a peak of the UK season. The final, for those who qualified, held golden tickets to JWOC and the dream of running for GBR. The season was in spring, and fed perfectly into the international racing season for those who made it. The final gave everyone something to aim for, you had to earn your sport as one of the top 15 in your age group. The cup races through the spring were always quality races. As a top year 20 I was living in Sweden, but flew back to ran in the FCC rounds, to the suprise of the FCC coordinator, but to me it was what had to be done.

But what now? It's been a long time since I was a junior, but I still have an active interest, because the juniors are the future. It worries me that many vets in the UK think they are the most important demographic because they are the most numerous. But sooner or later they will have to stop orienteering, and the future of the sport rests on the young people of today who are just not being catered for at all.

For the last 2 years the FCC series has been spread across the whole year from Spring to Autumn. The final reduced to one race with no significant reward other than a pat on the back and another Buff to add to the collection. And what has happened? Last year only 21 juniors ran the UK cup final, not the 60 maximum as in the past. At this moment in time only 3 juniors are entered for the 2012 FCC final. Three!!! THREE!!! THREE!!!

I don't know who made this decision, I could try and trawl through the BOF archives to find out, but I'm sure people on here know how this came about. The UK Cup suffered the same fate, and not suprisingly had the same disappointing turn out in 2011, and the same disappointing entry list for 2012.

But BOF want to combine the FCC, UKCup and Masters into one super-league for 2013. And they want these races to become the core of the UK fixtures by 2015. THIS IS A BAD IDEA.

The numbers speak for themselves, for junior and seniors having a year long cup series simply doesn't work. Why? Because they have international summer competitions to aim for, and after that they like to have a bit of time off. Proper elite orienteers periodise their training, it's impossible to be racing fit 52 weeks a year. By October most elites are thinking about the next summer, not driving across the country for the millionth cup race of the season. It has been well discussed why elites have the racing seasons they do, so I shall not dwell on it. I will just conclude that having the FCC and UK Cup running into Autumn doesn't work. There is no need to discuss it, people are just not going to the finals. Fact. Now I just wish BOF (or whoever makes the decisions) can see this.

The season long cup works fine for masters, who have nothing to aim for. So good for them to have a long season with many disciplines all over the country. It's a bit strange you can come joint first with someone you've never run against, or have run against but never beaten, but I'm sure whoever came up with the scoring system had a reason for that.

The junior cup needs to move back to a Spring season. As does the Senior cup. The FCC final needs to be reinstated as the great event it once was.

This year the JWOC selections were based on BEOC Sprint, Middle and JK Sprint Middle and Long. I'd like to point out that the BEOC Sprint wasn't even part of the FCC. It also had heats and a final, and only a handful of juniors made it into the final. JWOC is run as a straight sprint final, and so should our selection race! How can you select people if they don't run the same bloody course. This is just one of the many bizzare things about BOF Squad selections though...

Also, there is a strange combination of courses that juniors have to run. At JWOC the winning times are 12-15 for sprint, 20-25 for middle and 55 for W Long and 70 for M Long.

Yet at BEOC we make our junior run M/W21, why? The winning time is 10 minutes too long for the winners, let along the best juniors. At the JK, for example, the leading girls were 36:41 for middle and 17:37 for sprint. This is not relevant for JWOC. The JK long however, where they ran junior elite courses the winning times were much more realistic (54 & 65).

I strongly believe that it would be best to create a 17-20 Junior elite category. They should have their own courses planned specifically for them and their needs. Whilst I think it is great to run against seniors, this can be done at other races and not at those that are being used for selection for JWOC.

An FCC programme wouldn't actually be very complex. The JK is always one of the biggest races of the year. Add in BEOC Sprint/Middle and Long if it's at the right time, then you already have 6 races. You'd only need 1 more weekend of races to have a series.

The Swedish SILVA cup only had 6 series races. But those races are big races taken seriously. Much better to do that than drag it out over a whole year of smaller races with half fields turning up.

[Mrs H]

Mharky - as I hope you know - on this I am in entire agreement with you as witness my last comment on the National O series thread ( and many times prior to that).

It is one part (probably the major one tho) of a whole series of measures which marginalise young adults in the sport which have been introduced over the last 4 or 5 years which I have tried to high light. I don't know who is responsible for it but I was led to believe that someone was working on it - don't know who - do you suppose that the national O series was what they meant?

[graeme]

Quality rant.
But as usual, mharky, it's all based on the assumption that everyone under 35 is, like you, an aspiring elite. If you don't make that assumption, your argument falls apart.

The model you suggest would leave us with the only under 40s being elites or former elites. There is no need to discuss it, we ran the experiment, we can see the outcome. Fact.

[Mrs H]

Well there will be even fewer of those now won't there?

[Red Adder]

If mharkey doesn't like the way things are run then, if he hasn't done so already, he should volunteer his services to the Events and Competitons workgroups and draw his experience to influence things. That may change things, having a good rant on Nopeport makes you feel better but probably won't.

[mharky]

Graeme, what are you talking about?

There are hundreds of events in each region for non-elites to attend, I am addressing the one series of events that is specifically aimed at elites. So don't give me that "you're only talking for elites crap", of course I'm only talking for elites you idiot.

The FCC and UK Cup are aimed at elites. These events have been changed, and now no one goes. That is my argument. My argument is valid.

"The model you suggest would leave us with the only under 40s being elites or former elites. There is no need to discuss it, we ran the experiment, we can see the outcome. Fact."

Sorry, how exactly would "my model", (which is essentially the model that used to exist!) leave us with under 40's being elites. I didn't sayt remove the long or short courses, did I?!?! No. You're talking balls.

You say there is no need to discuss it, we ran the experiement and saw the outcome. Well the outcome was it didn't work. But the plan is still to continue with the new system. So of course there is the need to discuss it. We are now adopting a system of races for elites that does not cater for elites.

You need to explain what you mean, because you make no sense.

[mharky]

Red Adder>>> Do you think I've not thought of that. But seeing how the board of directors has already agreed upon the future of these competition based up "two wide consultations", and they have expressed their intention to make this the bases of the calender for 2015. They have clearly decided upon their decision and the future and do not want people trying to change it.

Have a look at the groups being advertised, have a look at their responsibilities. Their job is to carry out the decision that has already been made, not to make a decision that works.

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/i ... ty_tor.pdf

The groups looking for people work under the Events & Competitions Committee, so at the end of the day, have no power, they are just looking for free labour to do their bidding.

[mharky]

And, for Graeme and other people's benefits, this wasn't me having a rant. I though about this, I went and looked up information about this, this is a serious problem that affects to top end our our sport in our country, but as these people are essentially a minority with the vast orienteering population not caring in the slightest, I can see how nothing will change. The FCC and UK Cups will degrade into non-events. Our real elites will only run (J)WOC selection races. But no one cares. The standard will drop, orienteering will become even more of a hobby in the eyes of outsiders as there will be almost no scent of elite level competition in the UK. Getting funding will become impossible.

[SJC]

But seeing how the board of directors has already agreed upon the future of these competition based up "two wide consultations", and they have expressed their intention to make this the bases of the calender for 2015. They have clearly decided upon their decision and the future and do not want people trying to change it.

This was the stance that the Board took on the event level structure, but the membership were able to force them to change this by a vote at the AGM. If your arguments for a separate Elite calendar are sound, then put proposals to the AGM to resurrect the FCC and UK Cup. They will have little effect on the membership as a whole, so whoever puts forward the best argument should win.

[Dave]

Where's the like button on here..

[RS]

For once, I agree with Mharky. The FCC was the most important races of the year for juniors. I can remember parents driving the length of Britain so junior could race and perhaps replace a poor run with a better one so they could ensure a place in the final. The trophies had top names on them, the majority of which carried on at senior squad level.
It wasn't quite perfect as sometimes the criteria was changed to suit who the selectors wanted in the team, but on the whole, it was a top class competition for 16-20 year olds and open to all, not just the top few. Even newbies in their first year at uni were taking part.
FCC definitely needs a revamp and perhaps with a new name and transparent JWOC selection criteria, culminating in the spring, before exams, with a big, razzamatazz final.
to Mharky for bringing it up and researching so thoroughly.

[Red Adder]

Mharkey, I think you underestimate the potential to alter things. You have lots of junior and Elite experience and presumably contacts made over the 25 years. If your ideas are good and you can convince your peers then pressure can be put on BOF -perhaps not ito change the next couple of years but certainly in the longer term. BOF have made and continue to make lots of errors and so do not have a vast pool of goodwill in the sport to fall back on. if you are prepared to put in the effort and have good ideas that other will support the future need not be as black as you paint it.

[andy]

Mharkey, I think you underestimate the potential to alter things.

There is definitely potential to change things, perhaps a more diplomatic approach would be required

[NeilC]

I've never been an elite orienteer but my son is a half-decent one and for him there was only one competition of any great importance this year - JWOC. Selection races were a means to an end, other events (including BOC) were to be treated as training opportunities or holiday events. FCC hasn't even been on the radar. Other junior elites probably feel the same way but have better things to do than to make their views known on Nopesport. Whether they have a collective voice elsewhere I don't know.

I'm also finding myself in the "unusually agreeing with Mharky" camp. I am not convinced though that we need separate junior elite sprint and middle races. Results in a slightly longer race are still likely to accurately reflect relative ability for the championship races, and there will be others ways to prepare properly for the actual championships. In contrast there will not be many opportunities to race against the best of the senior elite, and these opportunities should be relished.

With GG on EC&C there was always hope that the Elite perspective would be taken seriously, but he may have found himself swimming against the tide.

[mharky]

I'm still in two minds about the junior elite class idea. For the very best juniors then running the 21 course isn't too much of a problem. But there are only a few people who can really race these courses properly. The 18's used to just have 2 long races at the JK, I'm not sure when they came onboard with the middle race, but it has meant some long winning times on M18E (e.g. JK 2011, 9th place is double JWOC winning time).

I think that there are far more opportunities to race against senior elites than there are to race under pressure with good quality fields at JWOC distances. In fact, I will go as far to say there are ZERO opportunities to race JWOC distances at good events with good fields under pressure. [In retrospect, if the FCC final was reinstated then this would be the 25/70 min winning times of JWOC, and the JK could be the M21 experience gaining weekend- MN]

If you look at Scaninavia, their juniors race against juniors in all the major competitions, but their top juniors are better than most of our seniors. Our juniors benefit from competition, which perhaps on junior courses they don't get so much, but I don't think doing 45+ minutes for the JK Middle is going to greatly improve may people.

It also would solve the problem of sever overcrowding on day 1 and 2, which courses our best athletes to run in the evening when everyone else has gone home, not great publicity.