can anyone advise - in competition area prior to event

[AndyC]

So ask the planner of the major event to plan the courses. Only needs be a level D event so no need for a controller.

And potentially gives him a view of how other people see parts of the area allowing him to do some tests of route choice (That however gives th risk that maps will fall into the hands of people running the main event and give an unfair advantage)

[Scott]

That however gives th risk that maps will fall into the hands of people running the main event and give an unfair advantage

Fairer just to put the courses from the Level D event up on RouteGadget, so everyone has an equal opportunity to check them out.

[graeme]

Oh dear. This has got me on to my biggest bugbear in orienteering.

You appear to be complaining about the Scottish 6-days. BOF rules allow, but do not require, embargoes for that, and I'm not aware of any announcement from the 6-day company about an embargo. Even if they have made such an announcement, they're free to waive it, and probably would for a genuine beginners event.

[greywolf]

The 6 day company have made an announcement, or at least their minutes say:
Embargoes. There is no formal embargo period. As Level B events, any embargo is at the discretion of the Association fixtures secretary. The Board felt that a 1-year embargo would be appropriate but would be sympathetic to any requests from MOR/INVOC to use some parts of 6 day areas for small events within that period.
http://www.scottish6days.com/home/minutes/directors-meeting-10th-jan-2012
More to the point, (unlike the Level A rules which forbid events in the area for the previous 24 months), the effect of an embargo for a Level B event is that any competitor who gains an unfair advantage should declare themselves non-competitive - but it doesn't prevent beginner events on the area and it doesn't stop anyone running the Level B event, just prevents them winning any prizes!

[Gnitworp]

I don't know about other people, but I find overfamiliarity breeds sloppy techniques. I've had my best runs on areas I'm not familiar with.

[AndyO]

Why not volunteer to plan or control an event on a great area - run as often as you want, no worries about being non-competitive

[distracted]

Firstly, well said Mharky! There are too many people who do not help the sport, and its image, by taking things far too seriously. In the grand scheme of things, inevitably it doesn't actually matter. People like nooomember/youngladdie/other similar toned aliases.

Sunlit Forres - I'd rather you took the newcomers onto a 6-day area than not. Many want more 'proper orienteers' - so we should be encouraging people to gain confidence on tricky areas by trying something in their own time, rather than throwing them in at the deep end...

[Sunlit Forres]

There is no formal embargo period.

Jon, you are very wise. As is Graeme and one or two other constructive and erudite posters on this site.

I don't have a PhD. I didn't go to Oxbridge. I didn't even go to university. Admittedly, my dad did go to school at Eton..... well, Cleck'eaton if the truth be known. I grew up on West Yorkshire football terraces and while I don't claim to understand root mean squared deviations, or how the BOF ranking table is devised, I do feel that I can relate to the everyday public. Orienteering's problem lies in how it's communicated to the wider population.

In the case of this particular embargo issue, I think the problem is one of perception. Many of orienteering's die hards are, by nature, very intellectual, are tuned in to fine detail and have no problem relating to obscure rules and regulations tucked away on web sites and in rule books, guidelines or wherever.

Let's remember that the vast majority or orienteers aren't. And that includes club committee members (it certainly does in Moravian's case).

Due to the nation's preoccupation with health and safety, many people are loth to take on responsibility. The misguided perception is that they're going to be sued or pilloried if the slightest thing goes wrong. A similar thing same applies to embargoes, and the interpretation thereof.

This debate has opened up the opportunity for the sport's senior management to show some real leadership, and take a hard look at what the orienteering needs to do to keep the rule book in its proper place. At elite/national event level there's an obvious need for tight regulation, but at club level we need to ensure that everyday club orienteers don't lose sight of the wood for the trees.

Behold the lowly turtle. He only makes progress when he sticks his neck out. This is the most exciting time ever for UK orienteering. It certainly is in this part of the world. Let's all pull together to make the most of this fabulous opportunity to put orienteering right up there as one of the best, and most welcoming, sports there is - a sport for all.

[King Penguin]

I don't know about other people, but I find overfamiliarity breeds sloppy techniques. I've had my best runs on areas I'm not familiar with.

Me too - and I have had some of my worst runs on areas I think I know well.

[SeanC]

From reading NeilC's comments it seems BOF (ie the BOF rules group) have got this one about right (or at least matching the opinions in the poll). So a big tick for BOF?

So who sets these embargos apart from the Scottish 6 day company? I did some googing on my own region (SEOA) and found that all events in a SEOA competition (eg SEOA league) must have a 12 month embargo. This includes various level B and C events. What do other regions do?

On the face of it, maybe embargoes don't have much of an impact on development in SEOA, there's plenty of parks and country parks etc for newcomers. However maybe there are more subtle problems. For example Epping Forest is right next door to 3 million people and is big enough for training and local events twice a week all year round, but the area is mostly used for big events. Even without embargos, heavy (ie more than once or twice a year) use of good orienteering areas close to population centres gets labelled as "overuse" by conservative club members*. In contrast there are places like Ashdown Forest that are more remote and landowners restrict access in any case, so embargos don't matter and "overuse" isn't a problem.

I think the problem may not be embargos but us. We (the experienced orienteering customers) want to go to as many different "good" areas as possible. Newcomers, local orienteers, coaching, club nights etc get what's left. I know there are lots of complicated reasons for this, but if we put development first and fitted the needs of competitions around it, we might have more chance of a long term future IMHO.

*not referring to Havoc/Chig or Epping Forest BTW

[graeme]

So who sets these embargos apart from the Scottish 6 day company?

Inter alia, me.

You might complain about taking level B and C events too seriously, but the fact is that most people could, should and do focus on competitions where they have a decent chance of winning. (e.g. mharky has shown considerable enthusiasm for B/C level events like WOC selection and BUSA).

Being beaten by someone who doesn't value the race is not a good outcome. So there's a one year embargo on SOLs, and I'm annoyed that BOF allow clubs to wriggle out of it by declaring the event level C*. The embargo only means that you don't get SOL points - nobody is prevented from going orienteering as they wish to, but if you want to be part of the SOL you have to play fair.

* if a club has legitimate reasons they should just just ask: in the end we're all on the same side.

[SeanC]

mmm, I'm guessing on the concensus here, but I suspect it goes like this..

if a punter standard orienteer gets a few minutes advantage* from going to a few informal events or doing a bit of training in that area, most people just aren't bothered. After all even with embargos, some people will have advantages because they've previously mapped the area, or have time to do some map geeking, or run there 20 times in the past 30 years. However the person who's trained/competed there recently wins the competition, then probably there will be annoyed people and dark mutterings**.

The problem I see with embargoes is that saying to a newcomer "if you go to the training event on X you'll be deemed non-competitive for the whatever competition" is really unwelcoming and is the sort of thing that puts many people right off orienteering. Depends how it's put of course, but the natural tendancy is for clubs to avoid the problem by not using the area, so their development strategy gets affected. Many local events also need a few experienced orienteers to turn up to make them economic and give a bit of buzz.

There could be a compromise where embargoes only affect winners. Ie you're non-competitive only if you've trained or competed on the area <insert when and how often> and you've won your course. ??

*unless it's one of the few serious team competitions, maybe CSC

**though personally it wouldn't bother me...let that be part of the competition, visit the permanent course in the area if there is one and you are motivated.

[Street]

You might complain about taking level B and C events too seriously, but the fact is that most people could, should and do focus on competitions where they have a decent chance of winning. (e.g. mharky has shown considerable enthusiasm for B/C level events like WOC selection and BUSA).

I am not mharky but I would like to think that I have a similar outlook on what competitions I have considerable enthusiasm for and so I feel I can answer this point. It is not the chance of winning that determines how seriously one takes a competition but what will happen should you win the competition.

For example the WOC selection races may be the 2nd most serious race of the year for "elites" regardless of whether they are at a Level A event or simply mini-kites and home printed maps. An embargo should be in place on those competitors who wish to be considered for selection - I would say 1 year simply because that seems relatively standard but I would think that if there was a really good area that had been used for a competition say 9 months before then it would still be acceptable to allow those competitors to remain competitive.

It's a lot harder to write rules than it is to critisise them, so I'd always recommned those that don't like a rule to write a better one, and post it on here for comment.

Therefore I would suggest...

Embargoes are to be in place on the following events: British Championships (all classes), JK (all classes), Home Internationals (all classes), WOC selection races (21s), JWOC/EYOC/JEC (respective classes). Beginners events may be held wherever and whenever.

If planning beginners events allows people to gain an advantage in a competition then so be it - an excellent new way to encourage more volunteers.

What I have a problem with, and I am disappointed with myself for having this problem, is embargoes for juniors (16-). Situation: local school takes 20 students regularly during a year to an area to train on. At the end of the year the southern champs is held and several of these juniors M12's beat a long time orienteer to the trophy. Maybe those of you with children might be able to explain how you would explain to the loosing child why these other kids were allowed to know the area. I am torn between wanting the school kids to be n/c because they know the area and let the long term orienteer win and continue enjoying orienteering - or to just let the schools kids win and maybe they will carry on orienteering. Thoughts?

[graeme]

Nice summary from an elite viewpoint: I should have extended "winning" to include "winning selection" as well as "winning the race". But your proposal is for embargoes on races that matter to you.

Down at the "vaguely competent M50" level the races that matter to me (i.e. where I'd be mightily annoyed to get beaten by an embargo-buster) are Scottish and British champs. Further down priorities change still more. I can easily come up with a list that suits me, another for my wife, a third for my son. So as NeilC said a one size fits all is highly problematic.

It's quite likely that the best funded people in the entire country next year will be
scotjos.
Getting into scotjos depends on doing well in SOLs which are level B/C (British Championships don't count). What to do? kids can easily come from nowhere to champion in a 24 month embargo period.

[Sunlit Forres]

Getting into scotjos depends on doing well in SOLs

I think Scotjos is the finest junior setup in the UK, with NW coming close. But I'm not sure how many clubs are aware of, or are publicising the Scotjos selection procedurehttp://www.scottish-orienteering.org/soa/page/scottish-junior-orienteering-squad-membership-selection-policy I know Moravian aren't, and I shoulder some of the blame for that personally. Ignorantia juris haud excusat for all you Oxbridge graduates. Rectifying now.

It would be wonderful to have an expanded squad, with selection within that squad for representative events. Obviously this brings with it challenges of managing larger groups of people and accommodation/catering/travel becomes a major headache.

So maybe development of a better 'area' system is something we need to think about (or even better - do something about). It's certanly something that i'll be talking to Jess about, with a view to providing an extra level between club and national level in Grampian Region.

Perhaps this deserves a thread of its own.