Time penalties for Ultrasprint races

[peteT]

I'm organising the Cliffhanger Ultrasprint in a couple of weeks. For those who haven't had the pleasure before Cliffhanger is huge outdoor event in Sheffield on 7-8 July.

OK plug over...

So the format of the event is 2 qualifying rounds that combine to give an overall time. The top X men and women will go into mass start A finals and everyone else will go into the chasing start B final.

Because there are a large number of controls in a relatively short distance - the final will have 30 controls in less than 2km things can be a bit confusing. In the past we have had quite a few people missing controls leading to disqualification. They have still been able to run the final but start at the back.

So this year I want to implement a time penalty instead. I'm just trying to get an idea of peoples experiences. I'm thinking that a 30second penalty would be about fair - big enough to make you get the controls. I'm thinking that the penalty would increase if more are missed e.g. 1 control 30seconds, 2 controls 90seconds, 3 controls 180 seconds etc.

Any thoughts?

[madmike]

Give them the time of the last complete finisher plus 30,90, 180.......

[andypat]

Give them the time of the last complete finisher plus 30,90, 180.......

NAh - thats as bad as a DQ! 30seconds is probably about right. We used 15s for our 550m "ultrasprint" a couple of weeks ago. Had to do it manually though - no IT skills!

[awk]

Give them the time of the last complete finisher plus 30,90, 180.......

Ugh! (Sorry madmike!).

The ultrasprint in Regents Park last year used (I think) 30 seconds per mistake, with no increases for more than one control. Whatever the precise figure, it worked really well - definitely a model I would recommend looking at. A couple of times it influenced decisions about what to do in a situation, but that was all part and parcel of the challenge and enjoyment.

[Tessa]

Yes it was 30 seconds at Regents Park last year. Cunning Helen G had seen me mispunch early on so knew she had that cushion. It made it quite fun. I wouldn't go for too much more or else you may as well DSQ.

[MIE]

Regent's Park had a straight 30secs per wrong control (with a limit of, I think, 5 wrong
after which it was a Disq). AutoDownLoad handled the penalty/disq automatically, but it
was the first time it was used in "anger" and needed some manual assistance. You may
want to contact SI to check what "variables" there are to the set-up, and if you need
a special/additional access code

[peteT]

Thanks for the input. It sounds like a straight 30 seconds may be the way ahead, certainly easier to manage and for competitors to understand.

Anyone been to one of the Orient'Show events on the continent?

[paul]

Regent's Park had a straight 30secs per wrong control (with a limit of, I think, 5 wrong
after which it was a Disq). AutoDownLoad handled the penalty/disq automatically, but it
was the first time it was used in "anger" and needed some manual assistance. You may
want to contact SI to check what "variables" there are to the set-up, and if you need
a special/additional access code

It was a straight 30 second per control done in autodownload. We threatened disqualification if we thought you were taking the mickey, but would have been manually done.

[Dave]

Give them the time of the last complete finisher plus 30,90, 180.......

NAh - thats as bad as a DQ!

Surely that's the point? We are talking about people who mis-punch here - they should be disqualified.
I ran at the Oirent'Show around 4 years ago and I think they may have had a time pentalty (~20-30s) for misses in the qualifiers but I think in the finals it was miss and you're out. Can't remember exactly 'cos I punched the correct controls.

[brooner]

There's details (and software) for the Orientshow setup here.

in an orient'show you have the right to mispunch up to 4 controls without being disqualified: you just get a 30 seconds penalty.

Not sure if that is per control though, but it should be.

[Red Adder]

I really like the principle of a time penalty and maximum number of faults in qualifying - but would be far harsher and say 1 minute penalty and only two errors allowed as that way everyone is allowed a bit of latitude and only the purists (one hit and you're out) could really have any complaints about being seriously disadvantaged. With a lower penalty and 4 errors you may just be encouraging the odd few to gamble and not take enough care to the detriment of runners who only push within their own limits and don't in any way benefit from their mistakes. I wouldn't allow any latitude in the final though.

[Spookster]

30 seconds penalty per mis-punch, with a maximum of three allowed before DSQ.

Ensure the course planning doesn't encourage mis-punching (there should not be an incentive to skip controls).

[andypat]

Give them the time of the last complete finisher plus 30,90, 180.......

NAh - thats as bad as a DQ!

Surely that's the point? We are talking about people who mis-punch here - they should be disqualified.
I ran at the Oirent'Show around 4 years ago and I think they may have had a time pentalty (~20-30s) for misses in the qualifiers but I think in the finals it was miss and you're out. Can't remember exactly 'cos I punched the correct controls.

Nope - think you are missing the point!

Ultrasprint courses break all normal O conventions about closeness of controls etc, so in order to avoid unnecessary DQ (or protests) some enlightened people have thought up the time penalty. Whether the final uses a different criteria is I suppose an argument, you want to avoid the possibility of tactical misses, but judicious siting of controls or clumps of controls should be sufficient.

and avoiding DQ is all the more important at events which introduce O to new people for the first time. Sending lots of people home with DQ agaisnt their name for their first O experience doesnt sound like good marketing to me...

[Dave]

Ultrasprint courses break all normal O conventions about closeness of controls etc,

yes, they do but they also break normal convensions for map scale, which combined with the fact you still have descriptions should mean there is no excuse for mispunching.
Adding a time penalty such as 30s will mean that the fastest guys can probably afford to skip 1 or 2 controls and still comfortably qualify.
Do you not think it defeats the point of sporting competition if you are able to finish (potentially with a good result) without having met the requirements of completing the sporting task?
I can accept that you might not want to be DQ'ing every newcomer but you can still let them run any B/C/D..final n/c and just not be a **** about it to them so they can enjoy the next race and try to learn from any mistakes made. If you are specifically targeting an event at newcomers, then I'd have thought you'd have coaching on hadn which can make this process even smoother.

[Gnitworp]

Ultrasprint courses break all normal O conventions about closeness of controls etc,

... and often even successive controls break these 'conventions' (rules). I think perhaps a good coverall new rule(s) in this respect might be to make the proximity limit proportional to scale. Haven't examined the implications in detail though.