Whats the right course for adult novice runners?

[Tim]

What happened to Red courses of the colour coded events in the 1980 and 90s? They were long-ish (6-7k) technically easy courses which suited fit newcomers who were looking for a decent run but who hadn't built up the technical skills to do Blues and Browns.

With the demise of Badge Events I guess this type of course isn't needed for any of the age class length/TD combinations that colour coded courses now focus on (approximate too?) so has died a death.

[AndyC]

Now described as a Long Orange apparently (and we've had a few) there has also been the even longer Purple course at times

[andypat]

But if novices are taking 60min plus for normal orange is long orange really the right option.

I remember putting on a red (basically a 5k yellow) course at a SOL a number of years ago and getting no entries. At the time I thought it was a waste of time and effort, but have come round to the realisation that it was the right course but simply there wasnt a market for it. The answer must surely be to go out and generate a market for it, like SF has described he is doing with runners, not simply to do away with it.

I think there's also a practical issue when using SI for courses suitable for adult and child novices, in that path junctions are not usually ideal places to secure SI units in areas such as parks for local events. So controls tend to get hidden away and newcomers get TD3ish instead of TD 1/2. Any easy solutions out there?

[Sunlit Forres]

I hope I've managed to make the point without being too critical of your system SF.

Yes, fair point Andy..... based on the way this was presented to you which was my fault for not making it clear. What the link didn't show was the way you navigate to it (ie through the 'leagues' menu on our web site). Our normal 'public' event publicity avoids jargon etc etc, and the EVENT (as opposed to the COMPETITION) is open to absolutely anyone. Only Moravian club members count for the LEAGUE (ie not INVOC & GRAMP etc).

Here's a link to how we promote the events to schools which hopefully looks more beginner friendly......http://www.moravianorienteering.org/content/moray-schools-orienteering-league-2012-information-schools-and-competitors

The point is that we don't get worked up by laying on TD5 for the experts - the better orienteers have no excuse for not running harder then normal!

That said, we're now getting enough people who want a harder challenge than the 'Long' Sat league course so we might soon be moving to a short/long/elite course combination.

Please PM me or give me a phone if you'd like to continue the discussion. I'm always receptive to new ideas from other clubs or to get perceptions from 'outsiders'.

[andypat]

Thats a significantly less intimidating picture you now paint - fantastic!

Youve got a good product there which is clearly aimed at a specific target group.

Sounds like you are also maybe bringing along some adults too which sounds very positive. Obviously I know youve got a lot of good stuff going on up there - we could all learn from it.

Going back to my original question and rephrasing it slightly based on the above discussion?

Is it better to put adult novices who like to run on:
A - an orange course in the hope that some get round OK and not worry too much about those that dont - they wont stick with it anyway
B - A potentially humiliating 2.5k run round the yellow course along with all the kids
C - A longer (5k) easy (TD2) course planned for adult runners to be able to get round at a decent pace.
D - Any other ideas?

[Red Adder]

I would actively discourage a newcomer adult to do more than a TD 3 course - in fact how about a free white or yellow just to get a feel of things then do the orange (thats how I started). If they do a higher TD then there is a v good chance they will take ages / get lost / give up and never return and the organisers may even have to conduct a search for them.

Should any courses below TD 4 have pictorial descriptions or maps without keys ? If you allow this as a planner / controller I don't think you are really doing your job. OCAD allows you to select the type of description sheet and also it quite easy to create a bespoke map (smaller area / larger scale / relevant key) for the TD 1-3 courses.

That said most sports have rules and jargon to cope with (golf's rules are about 1000 pages long - explain footie's offside - most pundits don't even have a clue). If getting to grips with the basics puts you off is the sport really for you ?

Do clubs do CATIs any more ?

[andy]

Gonna disagree with Andy on this one - pictorial descriptions seem obvious to us but we've had years of experience.

There are some that are confusing, yes, but a lot are intuitive.

(or were you forgetting about kids)

I ignored them, we're talking about adult novices (see thread title!)

you are really saying if you cant do orange fairly easily (say in under an hour) you probably should just give up. And how do you basically interpret the map if you dont have a legend on it - or its covered by the control descriptions. White = wood? But so is green?! Orange = grass? Doesnt sound like common sense to me...

Time is irrelevant, it's about enjoyment. I certainly wouldn't do any sport I didn't enjoy. My poor girlfriend (who isn't a runner) got dragged along yesterday and actually ended up really enjoying walking around the orange course (and refused any help from me beforehand about how to navigate!). She stopped to take pictures and talked to the marshals/planner and doesn't really have any aspirations for running/being competitive (apart from trying to avoid coming last anyway).

Map colours and such like are covered by my 'common sense' tack. People who show an interest in orienteering are generally intelligent and enjoy a challenge. Put them on an easy-ish area and they will pick these things up by experience. They learn themselves and that's a big step towards enjoyment. I realise everyone is different and this won't work on everyone. As someone who is pretty much a self taught orienteer (haven't had much in the way of coaching anyway) I think it's the way to go.

[andypat]

Thanks guys. Its really interesting to get everyone's views on this. Especially the ones that arent the same as mine! Thats what discussion is about after all.

[johnhrobinson]

from personal experience...

As a teacher (who was a runner and a walker , so experienced with OS maps etc) I took some schoolchidren to an event and thought I would have a go as well..being used to racing 6 MILES at x-country I decided to have a go at the Brown course probably 6-7 K, after all how hard could it be . 3 hours later I eventually completed the course having ran at speed for most of it and covering a lot of ground and eventually figuring out that white meant trees.

point is I thought "this is worth doing, must have another go and get it right" ( still trying btw , NOT its too hard.

Point is, an easy, medium distance ( to a runner ) course may not be the best introduction for everyone , they might dismiss it as trivial..Or am i just a contrarian

[johnhrobinson]

The question said " novice runners"

did it mean runners who are novice orienteers or people who are new to running AND
orienteering. possibly the answer to the question will depend on their background.

[HilaryQ]

I rarely wander through these shadowy portals, but find this topic hugely interesting, for various reasons.

My first thought was that it wasn’t what course people did that mattered, but that they had some guidance, didn’t just get a map thrust in their hand. Any coach worth their salt should be able to give an interesting, engaging 5-10 minute briefing covering 10 key points so that most people will “succeed” (by their own definition) at their first attempt of orienteering, whatever course they choose.
Then I thought about my own experience. The first course I did was a blue. I was a W35 (just) runner and hill-walker, reckoned I could do both fairly well and wanted to do a long enough course to make it worthwhile having got out of bed. I saw a lot of Cademuir that day, found all the controls, don’t think I was last… and history indicates that I was hooked (yes, it was over 20 years ago). Nobody had told me anything about the sport or the map, and the one person I spoke to on the way to the start fell about laughing when I said I was doing blue as a total novice. If someone had tried to take me aside and tell me about it, I wonder how receptive I’d have been? I wanted to get out there and run around.
Recent experience has shown me that there are many adults who want to try orienteering, but want to be taught what to do. They’re enjoying a structured approach that builds their skills. Several have now been to 12 such sessions (you could call them “club nights”, but they’re all out in forests, unlike some) but these people haven’t yet felt inclined to go to an event as such. Give them another couple of months… I also did a series of sessions for the running club, and they loved the 10km TD1-2 course. Many of them made good progress to TD3 standard over 2-3 sessions. But these are all specific coaching sessions, not events with standard courses. If all we'd had on offer had been "events", these people would still not be orienteering. Few of us would enter a 10k (or whatever) road race without trying a bit of running first. Isn't it reasonable to allow newcomers to try orienteering before they go to a competition?

So I reckon there’s no easy answer. We’re all different, our motivation to do the sport varies hugely, and what we want from our early experience varies hugely too. Should we be a bit more pushy in offering guidance (hey, we can all spot the newcomers!) whilst accepting that some really do want to just get out and try it?

Also, I can’t help thinking that by asking people who are orienteers, we’re only getting half the answers – and arguably the wrong half of the answers. We have very little real information about why people don’t come back. It’s great that AndyPat is picking the brains of a non-orienteering marketing person.

[andypat]

Thanks Hilary!

Actually I should probably have asked you this first - but its been very informative getting everyone's views. Whats really come across is that there very definitely isnt a single right answer - the answer depends entirely on the individual. The problem being that the individual is the one person who by definition doesnt really understand the sport, and therefore probably doesnt knwo what they need!

Taking what you've said one step further, I wonder if we really need to be aspiring to giving every newcomer the option of a 1:1 session with a qualified coach - creating a pathway for them to get into the sport?

[Oldman]

Reading this thread, what strikes me is that we are making a mistake that is all too common: ie assuming that we have events and that these should be what is used to attrract newcomers and allow them to get started. Whilst that is a possible way for some (as postings above show), it doesn't suit many who want as has been said a more structured and gradual approach to learning the basics.

We must define our target market (be it runners), ask them what they enjoy or want, put on activities/coaching/mini-events or whatever would meet their needs, and then promote those and seek feedback from those who try them.

There is a whole spectrum out there, with events and their courses some considerable way from the left hand end of "I know nothing about orienteering and want to see if I like it."

[EddieH]

Oldman's first post could have been written by me, just as I relte to JohnRobinson.

RedAdders' prescription would NEVER have got me into the sport. I was a nvigator first and an athlete (Not at all). Navigating appealed - running did not. There are many like me and there are 2 things that mean that we re mny many times more likely to pursue the sport than the running fraternity because

A) We have the core essential to enjoy orienteering - we love and understand maps. and

B) We don't get frustrated when we have to stop to work it out as running is not the focus.

The running came later becuse I wanted to prove that I could navigate. (A fellow top M60 once told me tht he thought that orienteering would be much better if running was banned - he has certainly changed his mind, but it was a good place to start from.)

[Sunlit Forres]

HilaryQ wrote:Also, I can’t help thinking that by asking people who are orienteers, we’re only getting half the answers – and arguably the wrong half of the answers. We have very little real information about why people don’t come back.



Bingo!

This is the answer, the nail firmly hit on the head...

Meanwhile there are cries of anguish when BOF bring in new ideas from people who haven't been orienteering for donkey's.