Kids crossing roads again

[frog]

Quick question before our event tomorrow. Are under 16s OK to cross a main road if only 1 crossing point and a martial present? I think they are but thought I'd check with others. Otherwise they're stuck with yellow and orange.

[Mrs H]

Frog - this is the info I got from the insurers (my question on the bottom) hope it helps!

From: "Graeme Jolly" <Graeme.Jolly@wwsi.co.uk>
Date: 11 January 2012 12:53:06 GMT
To: <lynden@mado.org.uk>
Cc: <MHamilton@britishorienteering.org.uk>
Subject: RE: Query re policy PLON99/0069526 British Orienteering Federation

Hi Lynden,

Thank you for your email.

The insurance policy pretty much supports and follows the BOF Rules and
Regulations, so provided that it is not in breach of those Rules for
competitors under 16 to cross a road during a competition we would be
happy for you to proceed.

Having said that, you have a duty to provide a safe environment for the
competitors taking part in your event, so the level of marshalling and
whether the road crossing is "timed out" will depend upon the flow of
traffic on the road that competitors are being asked to cross. As a
Club, you will need to risk assess and act accordingly.

I hope this response helps, but if you require any further information,
please do not hesitate to call/email.

Best regards

Graeme



-----Original Message-----
From: Lynden Hartmann [mailto:lynden@mado.org.uk]
Sent: 11 January 2012 10:43
To: info
Subject: Query re policy PLON99/0069526 British Orienteering Federation

Dear Worldwide Sports Insurance UK
Could you please give me some clarification regarding restrictions of
cover under the above policy in relation to under 16s.  Are competitors
who have not yet attained their 16th birthday permitted to cross roads
during the course of competition under the following circumstances?
1:  if the road crossing is marshalled.
2:  if the road crossing is marshalled and "timed out" so there is no
temptation to rush.

It would be most helpful if you could let me know exactly what
restrictions apply to this age group at your earliest convenience.

Yours faithfully
Lynden Hartmann (Mrs) Harlequins Orienteering Club

[MIE]

There are 2 (at least) views on this

1. The marshall is not responsible for the crossing, only for making the
crossing highly visible to both road users (be they motorists,motor-cyclists or cyclists)
and competitors. In practise they cannot stop traffic (legally) and should only "advise"
competitors that it is safe (or otherwise) to cross*. It is the competitors responsibility
to ensure that it is safe to cross and cross safely. If there is no time-out at the crossing
there is an imperative in competitors to cross as quickly as they can and sometimes
safety is forgotten. This is deemed to be more of a problem if you are 15years and 364
days old or younger than if you are 16years or older.

2. Put in a timed-out crossing then there will be no problem with any age crossing the
road as they will not be "racing" at this point. This still puts the onus on the competitor
to cross safely but gives unlimited time (or limited if you want) for the competitor
to cross safely.


My preference in this, especially if it is a main road, is for a timed-out crossing for all
competitors. I don't want to be the person responsible for anyone ending up under the
the wheels of someone driving a touch too fast along any road.


* Or someone may deem that they are legally liable for any accident/problem caused

And Mrs H has given the insurers view whilst I was trying to compose this from a purely
organisers point-of-view

[AndyC]

Quick question before our event tomorrow. Are under 16s OK to cross a main road if only 1 crossing point and a martial present?

We've used Army Cadets to marshall crossings
Seriously we had an U16 crossing roads in an event on Saturday -the same roads he crosses to go to school but with a lower level of traffic (it being a weekend). I suspect we breached the insurance guidelines, fulfilled a reasonable risk assessment and passed the commonsense test.

[graeme]

We've used Army Cadets tomarshall crossings

Which was used only by their boss, I presume? I think Angela meant 'marshal'.

[SJC]

Seriously we had an U16 crossing roads in an event on Saturday -the same roads he crosses to go to school but with a lower level of traffic (it being a weekend). I suspect we breached the insurance guidelines, .....

From the discussions some years ago I am sure it is more than just the insurance that you have to worry about. If you allow under 16s to run a course which does not meet the BOF guidelines with regard to running on and crossing roads, and then a child is involved in an accident, then you could be judged to have put the child at risk. This then becomes a legal matter rather than just the insurance company paying out (or not) any financial claim against you.

[Roger]

Speed limits and timed-out crossings for U16s get mentioned in Guideline E Urban Events, and in a paragraph starting 'Urban orienteering...' in Appendix E Safety. (I haven't combed the other guidelines and appendices.) The implication is that provided you've assessed the risks then if your event is a 'forest' event your under-16s can cross any road that's in-bounds (so not motorways then), but if it's designated as an urban event then the boundary at age 16 comes into play.

This may not be what the rule-makers intended, and may or may not pass a test of reasonableness applied by insurers or personal injury lawyers.

On the other hand, Mrs H's insurer's response does seem reasonable.

[frog]

Ours isn't an urban event, and often at our local events we only have 1 or 2 under 16s if any running green or blue so a timed out crossing seemed a bit complex for our small event. I think we'll see if any turn up and if they do we'll just stick a marshal on the road. It isn't a dual carriageway.
Thanks for the advice.

[EddieH]

Incompetent marshals are more dangerous than none. At the WMOC trial sprint in Wiener Neustadt army cadets (or young policemen I can't remember which) were marshaling some dangerous runner crossings. I watched one guy make a vague attempt to stop traffic by stepping apologetically into the road. This had the effect of assuring a runner that the crossing was clear, but when the traffic failed to respond the man stepped back onto the pavement. Very nearly a serious accident here but the runner managed to screech to a halt and the driver swerved.

[Arnold]

Amazingly enough at least for forest events a common sense approach appears to be prevailing - wahey!

I think if your U16s choose to run up then as long as you make it clear it's an "adult's course" then you should be fine, maybe "U16s are advised to run course X which is appropriate to them but may run any course provided they are aware of the risks shown in the final details"

Gets slightly harder when you're planning a course aimed at U16s - as I am for next year's British. Presumably M10s are not supposed to cross any road (and they won't) but what about M12s, M14s..where does it start to become reasonable to have timed out / marshalled / non marshalled crossings, depending on the road involved etc.

Apparently "back in the days" no one cared and toddlers were routinely asked to cross dual carriageways unaided but I shall try and be sensible with advice from the controller.

[mister blobs]

Gets slightly harder when you're planning a course aimed at U16s - as I am for next year's British. Presumably M10s are not supposed to cross any road (and they won't) but what about M12s, M14s..where does it start to become reasonable to have timed out / marshalled / non marshalled crossings, depending on the road involved etc.

Whilst I personally think that the restrictions on U16s for urban events are too proscriptive we should also remember, when planning courses for age classes, that our age classes for juniors can be misleading. If you are planning an event in January some of your M12s will have only turned 10 in the December a month before, others will be 12 already. There is a big difference between these two competitors - one will still have nearly two years to go at primary school whereas the other will already be settled into a secondary school.

We often see courses where the planner/controller seem unaware that M/W12 means that juniors will be aged between 10 and 12 on the day of the race. The precautions I'd expect to see for a 10 year old are very different from those for a 12 year old.

[Big Jon]

Jubilee5 urban sprint race had a 12- course which stayed in the school grounds and a couple of cul-de-sacs next to it while the 16- course had road crossings over 30mph roads - but all quiet residential streets and a marshalled and taped/signed crossing of the largest road next to the school (the only one buses use). A co-ordinator I felt comfortable that we had planned sensible reasonable courses and covered risks sensibly. There were no incidents and I have not heard of any near misses or residents' complaints so I reckon things worked out.

[frog]

Our local event was a washout so what to do with the hoards of under 16s desperate to run green was an academic exercise. Thanks to those who did brave the rain to come, especially those who had spent all day in the rain at the tempo as well.
The tempo had a fire alarm to add to the excitement, lots of wheelchair athletes being sent back out into the rain to hang around for half an hour until the fire engines turned up just when they thought the soggy bit was over and they could sit in the warm with cakes and coffee.
There is an awful lot of hanging around in elite tempo. They had to hang around in a tent at the finish until the last trophy competitor had finished as well.