Orienteering and young families

[awk]

Yes, those two never spent any time in Scandinavia...

Duhhh. I never realised.

Of course they did, but at the time they didn't have access to that sort of terrain, so they got on and used what they had to best of their ability (indeed, Yvette specifically talked of those sessions as being one of the key components in her preparation). Which is one reason they were so good.

[mharky]

What's your point?

Yes they did some training on easy areas, but that alone will not make you good. You will not turn into Thierry by running urban races or round simple parks. (And don't reply by saying not everyone wants to be Thierry, because you were the one who brought up Heather and Yvette)

And I think people DO do urban races because it's easy. They just aren't doing it on a conscious level. They make less mistakes because it's easy, so they have better runs, so they enjoy themselves more and feel better about themselves. Physically urban races are much easier, so they run faster and feel less tired (older people are very poor through terrain, but still OK on tarmac), so they feel better about their fitness and enjoy themselves more.

If you tie that in with a nice guided tour of a historic city in reach of public transport then you get a successful event.

Is that traditional orienteering. No. Go to Scandi and see what real orienteering culture is like, then you'll see why Dids and myself feel what we do about British urban orienteering, and British orienteering culture in general. Fortunately I live in Scotland and get to run at events like GRAMP's 150 person colour coded event on Glen Dye that was more of a real orienteering experience than the majority of BOCs or JKs I have run.

[DIDSCO]

Do most qualified coaches in the UK agree with Awk and feel its possible to gain the skills/train the skills needed to be a good forest orienteer by running street races around the local tower blocks?

[madmike]

Do most qualified coaches in the UK agree with Awk and feel its possible to gain the skills/train the skills needed to be a good forest orienteer by running street races around the local tower blocks?

Some of them yes - all of them no.

[King Penguin]

Do most qualified coaches in the UK agree with Awk and feel its possible to gain the skills/train the skills needed to be a good forest orienteer by running street races around the local tower blocks?

If there is not something to be gained from such activities what on earth is the purpose of the heavily-pushed Community O philosophy ?
Or maybe there isn't any beyond the fact that there is funding available so we must make use of it ?

[awk]

Didsco: Obviously my language wasn't sufficiently precise. I would not claim that one could gain the full set of skills required for forest orienteering through urban. What I was trying to stay wasn't exactly earth shattering - that one can still practice some of the skills required in an urban setting. There is, of course, no genuine substitute for training in the exact environment you want to perform in, but when you can't, you use what you can, as elite athletes in many sports have shown (stories of marathon runners training in steamy bathrooms preparing for humid Olympics jump to mind!).

What urban orienteering can also do, is help people develop sufficient skills close to home so that they can then move on to forest orienteering further away if they want to. They won't be good at it, but they will have enough skills to start enjoying it.

Mharky:

What's your point?
Yes they did some training on easy areas, but that alone will not make you good. You will not turn into Thierry by running urban races or round simple parks. (And don't reply by saying not everyone wants to be Thierry, because you were the one who brought up Heather and Yvette)

My point was exactly what I said, hopefully clarified above. I didn't claim that running urban races or round simple parks will turn one into Thierry, nor did I claim that training on easy areas alone will make you good. I simply said that one's orienteering, at any level, can still benefit by using what you've got.

Go to Scandi and see what real orienteering culture is like, then you'll see why Dids and myself feel what we do about British urban orienteering, and British orienteering culture in general.

I'm more than aware of the orienteering culture in Scandinavia: I was out there orienteering years before you were born. I have also learned that, for good or ill, Britain is not Scandinavia , and that hankering after their culture (something I once did) doesn't work, much as I still envy them (recognising that Scotland probably has a better chance of making it work than England). We work at making the best of what we've got in a country with less than 10% woodland, and some of the densest population in Western Europe.

Fortunately I live in Scotland and get to run at events like GRAMP's 150 person colour coded event on Glen Dye that was more of a real orienteering experience than the majority of BOCs or JKs I have run.

Lucky you. It's why we try to get to similar events in the Lakes. But for most of us, and if we want to have any orienteering in this country, that isn't enough.

[DIDSCO]

I never said there wasn't anything to be gained from running round the local tower blocks, but the skills you need to be a good forest orienteer cant be gained running the streets. Its like saying a good street fighter on the council estates of Leeds/Bradford would be able to match the skills of a championship boxer in the ring, the street fighter would lose in the first round by a knockout punch as they wouldn't have the technique to compete with someone who can really test their skills and punish every little mistake.

[awk]

So we're pretty much in agreement. One can benefit from it, one can use it to practise/train/simulate, but it's not enough on its own.
(BTW, I haven't run round tower blocks for some time, and then only rarely - most of my recent urban stuff has been small towns, intricate alleyways, complex housing estates).

And I think people DO do urban races because it's easy.

You can think it as much as you like Mharky, but I still don't know anybody who does it for that reason. Most orienteers want a challenge, and urban provides one, even if different to terrain. Most urban orienteers enjoy terrain orienteering too.

so they run faster and feel less tired

(older people are very poor through terrain, but still OK on tarmac)

You've obviously not got a 50+ year old body then - tarmac is far more brutal on mine than terrain. And given that I'm generally competing against other 50+ year olds in terrain (but 40+s in urban), my relative ability through terrain compared to a 21 is fairly trivial.
One of the reasons my club runs urban events is because it attracts a higher proportion of younger adults.

[SeanC]

I think this debate is getting a bit confusing. What about the poor children? We were talking about them once.

I do agree with Arnold that (especially in places like London where there isn't much alternative) park and urban orienteering are the places to get most people started in orienteering, so long as the event has some buzz.

However that gives us three publicity jobs. First to get the newcomers to our friendly, accessible TD3 orienteering, then to persuade these new people to move on to classic forest orienteering in their own region, and finally for people like me safe in the TD4 comfort zone of easy southern forests to go further afield to more challenging areas still (and get the skills needed to be competitive.. or just finish).

Orienteering's performance at all 3 types of publicity is a bit patchy.

Mharky, Kitch, Didsco and lurkers with similar viewpoints - it sounds like you are the people to help get people out of their park/urban/southern softie forest comfort zone and into something more challenging. Start a campaign or something? Some articles in CompassSport/Focus? I know CompassSport does have lots of articles on big events but I'm sure some more written with this target market in mind, written with the obvious passion and demistifying the events?

I wouldn't use "real orienteering" though as it sounds like it might turn into The Four Yorkshireman sketch. Classic orienteering? Doh, that's gone.

Bottom of a Lake O? Now that'll be tough.

[awk]

I think this debate is getting a bit confusing. What about the poor children? We were talking about them once.

Good point Sean. Sorry!

[HOCOLITE]

Back to the original topic.
I did not start orienteering until youngsters were 5 & 7 but I must say that string courses and off string were mosts popular. We were fortunate in that both were competant at white courses well before they were 10. The issue of distant starts or even different start locations was always a problem. I can remember a couple of nice older girls who volunteered to take them to a start at a White Rose when it was different to our own and was along roads. Many thanks again Becks.

Long walks to starts was always an issue 3Km I think at Newborough Not enough time then to get back to the finish to collect said offspring. Fortunately the social life of an under 10 year old in those days was pretty good usually plenty of lads to play football or cricket with whilst waiting for parents. Age didn't matter my under 10 would happily play with 14-16 year olds and they seemed to put up with him.

More youngsters taking part spreads the pressure on parents.

[denbydale]

And I think people DO do urban races because it's easy. .

Is that why you ran the Short Course in last year's City of London Race instead of the Long?

[mharky]

You got me there. The long course was too technical for me, so I ran short instead.

[DeerTick]

(older people are very poor through terrain, but still OK on tarmac)

You've obviously not got a 50+ year old body then - tarmac is far more brutal on mine than terrain.

I'm with awk here. My 60+ year old body is still (relatively ) OK with tarmac. Downhill through rock infested brashings - that's another matter!

AP

[DeerTick]

Clearly, I'm not with awk. Sorry.