Orienteering and young families

[DIDSCO]

Why don't major events provide child care in the UK- where kids get to meet other kids and have fun. I left my eldest at a local orienteering events child care when he was barely one year old.

Also why do orienteering club members insist on running at their own events? Why cant they just give up a few Sunday's a year and just concentrate on putting on a great competition for other orienteers?

[frog]

Some club members don't travel far and the larger events their club puts on may be the only larger events they go to. I think it should be possible to do both for most people. It's different to a hill race where everyone starts at once. I'd rather help twice as often and get to run both times than help less and not run.

[AndyC]

Also why do orienteering club members insist on running at their own events? Why cant they just give up a few Sunday's a year and just concentrate on putting on a great competition for other orienteers?

In the NE (of England) in the past two of the three clubs only entered one event into the rankings each in a calendar year. (they've both now started putting in more). My club puts on 4 ranking events a year and I'm usually an official in two of them (1x planner 1x organiser) so if I help out in the other two and don't run I get two sets of ranking points a year (which means I rank far too low) unless I drive a long way to leave the region. That's why we try to let helpers get a run in -after all most of us do the sport because we enjoy it and assist as part of paying our dues.
"a few Sundays a year" for small clubs possibly means up to 12 due to the limited number of helpers (add to that the bigger events where we're all required to assist and MIGHT get a run in if we're lucky)

[70plus]

I think the point you're missing there is how can people "come to O" if they dont even know what it is. Once you know what orienteering is you can come back to it at any time in your life. But if you hold what I believe to be the prevalent view of orienteering that the general public has (its a pastime, possibly a hobby, but certainly not a sport) then why would you consider it if you have an inkling for real sporty stuff?

Thirty years ago I think few people here knew about O, but these days I don't see many faces glaze over in the way they used to. I'm all in favour of keeping up a profile; I suppose I'm just inured to seeing poor returns for serious attempts to attract regulars.

Traditional O will always be at a disadvantage when outsiders only see competitors disappear for about an hour, and there is little visible contest unless a sprint develops on the run-in. And then there are so many fogeys tottering about in funny suits. It's a bit clearer in a city race, but they do get in the way of traffic ...

[Liz X]

There is always so much talk on this forum about how to attract new people to the sport. Shouldn't retaining those people we already have be just as much of a priority? Especially in the 21/35 age groups that we all stress about so much?

Personally I have been orienteering for more than 30 years. I love it. It is part of my sense of self-identity. I have made many of the deepest friendships of my life through it. And yet still I really struggle sometimes to keep going with two small children. Like housewife we are often just totally exhausted and daunted by the long day with split starts. (And yes, we suffer from sleepless nights still, and our youngest is 3 - we are not all as fortunate as you may have been with our children's sleeping habits, Mrs H!)

So just to add my totally non-elite perspective to proceedings, the things that were mentioned at the start of this thread (prizegiving apart!!) are the things that make a real difference to me, and my continuation in the sport. Of course the kids can just play and run about if there is no string course, but it is the string course that makes our kids feel hugely positive about orienteering, and for us that is probably the single most important thing in continuing to orienteer really regularly.

[mappingmum]

Why don't major events provide child care in the UK

Because in the UK there are a lot of regulations regarding childcare, even when provided "free" as part of an event.

Also the media in the UK ensure that terrible things happening to children are well publicised despite such events being relatively rare. Disproportionate reporting.

[andypat]

Thirty years ago I think few people here knew about O, but these days I don't see many faces glaze over in the way they used to. I'm all in favour of keeping up a profile; I suppose I'm just inured to seeing poor returns for serious attempts to attract regulars.

While I'd agree that the problem is more than just awareness or perception, I'd like to see a poll sometime of perception of orienteering in the UK. The example I always think of is handball. I'd genuinely never heard of this sport till about 8 years ago, and I've still no jidea how its played, but there are apparently about the same number of clubs in the UK as there are orienteering clubs.

If you think about it, unless youve experienced orienteering somewhere, how else would you really know what it is?

We have maybe 15,000 regular orienteers in the UK. If you assume that we are all quite good at bringing 10 friends and family along - or at least boring them at the dinner table or down the pub. So thats 150,000 people who have some sort of current exposure to O. Thats a bit of a snapshot in time so lets allow for the fact that lots of people come and go. In fact lets assume that thats only 1% of the people who've experienced O at some point. So (a bit generously I think) we've 15 million people now who've had some sort of experience of O either directly or indirectly - essentially they know what it is.

Sounds good?
So what about the other 75% of the population who've never come across the sport (ever). These are the faces glazing over - how do we expect them to consider the sport, if they dont even know it is one?

[NeilC]

And another thing, the rule that taking kids around a white before you run makes you non-competitive for your 10k course is absolute tosh. In what way is legging it around some paths after a 4 year old, with a 2 year old on your shoulders in anyway an advantage? Whoever makes this rule can try it out for themselves if they like...

Another one of those pesky rules/guidelines (even at IOF level) suggests that it is good practice for competitors at the pre-start not to be able to see where other competitors on your course go after the start. An elite taking their child round before their run will be able to see where their competitors are going, and may be able to guage whether that first bit of forest is runnable or whether the path option is better etc. I continue to be amazed how many good orienteers don't suss out the finish layout within assembly at a major event before their run and then lose time. A little time spent familiarising oneself with the layout can save seconds (at the British Middles this year one of the first women elite finishers (I forget who - Helen W perhaps) crossed into the finish field before punching the last control for example) a pre-race trip into the forest, even on a white, may provide familiarisation of a complex path junction for example.

Rules are not only written to ensure that the race is as fair as possible, but that it is perceived to be fair. A runner going into the forest before their run has the opportunity to gain an advantage even if in reality it may be very small. The rules are written so that they can be level specific. If your local club is stopping parents shadowing before their run at a level C or D event then I'd have a word with them. At level A or B I support this rule.

[greywolf]

Rules are not only written to ensure that the race is as fair as possible, but that it is perceived to be fair. A runner going into the forest before their run has the opportunity to gain an advantage even if in reality it may be very small

which would be fine if we were orienteering in new forests all the time, but most of our event venues seem to be reused year after year, a huge advantage for the locals and regulars. IMHO the no shadowing before racing rule should be reserved for the really serious events: Level A / WRE, selection races, etc

[70plus]

The example I always think of is handball. I'd genuinely never heard of this sport till about 8 years ago ... but there are apparently about the same number of clubs in the UK as there are orienteering clubs.

So what about the other 75% of the population who've never come across the sport (ever). These are the faces glazing over - how do we expect them to consider the sport, if they dont even know it is one?

So to extend your pro-rata calculation, we may already have attracted 25% of our potential maximum? Maybe we should realistically assume that many of your 75% have no interest - you are counting the entire age-profile. If handball has a similar national following, has anyone asked whether they face the same difficulty, and what success they have had in recruitment? (of course they have the advantage of being more of a spectator sport)

[Snail]

Because in the UK there are a lot of regulations regarding childcare, even when provided "free" as part of an event.

It used to be common to provide a creche at level A/B events, but it died out around 15-20 years ago because of this perception of regulations. (I don't know enough to know if the perception is actually true.)

But what I think would still be possible, at least at larger events, is for the organising club to provide a spacious tent, with a decent groundsheet, access to clean water, ideally with a plastic fence around, etc, that makes it easier for parents to organise their own child care, perhaps in conjuction with other families. Particularly on damp days this could be more fun than sitting in the car.

Would this be helpful / would it be used?

[SeanC]

How about a parent with child parking area? At least then parents and children could meet up and chat rather than be scattered round the car park field. And of course it could be nearer to the start/finish.

Of course if it's like Tesco's the spaces would be filled with 2 seater sports cars and converted 15 year old Saxo's.

[Mrs H]

(I don't know enough to know if the perception is actually true.)

It's actually worse. I went into this in a fair amount of detail for JK2005 - the creche situation was impossible - secure compound with toilets and clean water supply etc, specific ratio of children to qualified and checked staff etc. I settled on pretty much what you described - I arranged for a tent to be provided with toys, crayons, paper, tables and chairs and as I recall the Chasers excelled with old carpet on the floor. I had a number of enthusiastic youngsters keeping the supplies up (Tessa was one and Carol White another). The rule was no child was to be left unattended but it was up to the parents to provide the necessary cover. It was well received as I recall but it is quite a bit of extra organisation although after that I did try to make sure there was a public shelter tent at all our "badge" events but i've rather lost the enthusiasm. I can't imagine the situation has eased since then.

Obviously I've been promoting extra attractions in flyers and final details for years in my Extra Value Orienteering campaign. E.V.O. is quoted on many fliers - but not necessarily family orientated.

The family parking zone is a good idea and very simple to organise - just an extra sign and clued up parking marshals

[roadrunner]

So it's fine for parents to leave their kids in the care of other parents, who they may have never met before and who may or may not be CRB checked, but if it's organised as part of the event then you have to meet all sorts of rules? Sometimes I think our laws are plain stupid! Is it just the UK, or is all of Europe the same?

[SIman]

A string course or similar activity for very young children should be provided.

Well done Claire for starting this, Frog for noticing the rule and Graeme for fixing the omission. Now all we need is people to read the rules.