Squeezed middle?

[Eric]

The travel isn't the issue either.

[awk]

Also, I don't think most people expect to enter one every week, though I'm sure there are exceptions.

I think this is far more significant than its (lack of) prominence in discussion suggests people appreciate. Most of the comparisons made are with events/competitions where people will compete in, maybe, half a dozen a year at most spread throughout the year. Orienteering tends to be week in, week out, and we've recently seen in the space of just ten weeks, the British Middle/Sprint weekend, JK, British Long/Relay Champs weekend, Twin Peaks weekend and soon to come Jubilee weekend multidays, along with smaller races on every weekend in between, several of which have become weekends rather than one-offs. The result is a humungous expense if one tries to compete in even just a selection, not just in financial times, but in time terms. We've kept it going this year (aside from the jubilee multidays), but have looked long and hard at the programme, and decided we can't do it again, especially as there is the option of quite a bit of good quality orienteering more locally.

[Mrs H]

So Eric - if it's not the entry fee and it's not the traveling what is it? As a family at current rates it would have cost us £120 to enter plus travel and accommodation on top. How is that to be managed two weeks after the British and two weeks before the Jubilee weekend?
We have houses and gardens and extended families which also need attention. Is it the calendar that's the problem?

Had we but world enough and time ........(and money)

[Eric]

I thought this thread was about M/W21s?

[frog]

Agree re the calendar being busy. Teenagers have exams at the moment, there have been alot of o events, now is a busy time if you want to plant vegetables, and I'm quite lazy and like having some weekends when I can lounge in bed on a morning and not charge around.
It's also school orienteering season so we are putting on local small events to try and get kids moving into club orienteering (not that that seems to work very well)

[Mrs H]

I thought this thread was about M/W21s?

Yes and we have an M21, a W21 and a W20. I don't think they'd do anything if we didn't pay and provide the transport.
So if you know the answer then do us a favour and tell us.

[Eric]

Well in this age group they'll want to do something where everyone else is of the same age. Go to an orienteering event and what kind of audience do you see? Orienteers also love to do more orienteering and if you put on a targeted event the whole demographic will still show up.

Also there is challenge if you come into orienteering through your family and once that process of providing transport/entries etc has gone (because they have moved away for example) standing on your own two feet seems a bit too much.

A couple of views on it all. Please feel free to disagree.

[Clive Coles]

i think this is true in the case of local orienteering

if you put on a targeted event the whole demographic will still show up

But very often it's those folk who have done much of the graft , surveying and producing the map, getting land permission, organising and helping on the day.

So if it is local I don't blame them for turning up. We are a sport where the demographics are more unusual than most. Orienteers are still participating in our sport into their 80 's.

But I don't really think this is the case for the larger events such as the Student or Schools Championships. I certainly have never travelled to one.

But there is a trend at the moment , in order to make an event more attractive ( and to justify the travelling) to stage more two day events, say a combination of an urban league event and a regional standard event. The hope is more folk will travel and swell the numbers.

This was seen to be a good idea at the time, the events are I am sure good quality. But we shouldn't be surprised if entry numbers don't meet with expectations.

There is a limit to the number of weekends many folk can afford to be away from base. They have lives to lead, friends to visit, and a dwindling amount of ready cash.

We seem all to be going after the same target audience and we have provided too many orienteering options.

I actually believe out sport would have been better served by focusing more on developing local orienteering. Within every age group there is a squeezed middle.

Sadly that means Eric you will not get the demographic mix of participants that you seem to be seeking.

[SJC]

I actually believe out sport would have been better served by focusing more on developing local orienteering.

and from another thread-

If the marketing was better for events like the Bloodshlitter, now Tim Watkins Trophy, then at least this event could become of of those "hey have you heard of" events. This would move orienteering away from it's "country park treasure hunt" status and more towards that of the endurance sports, where it belongs.

In other sports it is the high profile events with large numbers of participants that attracts the media and the attention of the public. Any local development follows from the interest that these generate. So to be successful as a sport then orienteering needs both.

[SeanC]

Well in this age group they'll want to do something where everyone else is of the same age. Go to an orienteering event and what kind of audience do you see? Orienteers also love to do more orienteering and if you put on a targeted event the whole demographic will still show up.

Also there is challenge if you come into orienteering through your family and once that process of providing transport/entries etc has gone (because they have moved away for example) standing on your own two feet seems a bit too much.

A couple of views on it all. Please feel free to disagre

SLOW have been producing events targetting younger orienteers for a few years and if you go to a SLOW street O or ParkRace you'll see a different demographic to a typical orienteering event. Oldies are very welcome too.

For classic forest O with mainly over 45's it does sound like club minibuses could be an answer. Minibuses are going to be more popular with younger orienteers who would rather go in the van because of lack of transport or socialising, especially if it stops for food etc on the way back. Older orienteers can rush back in their air conditioned saloons before Gardener's Question Time starts. Younger orienteers then get their non-oldies ghetto and once you're in the forest it doesn't matter anyway.

I'm interested in the practicalities of the MDOC minibus. How long was the pregnant pause when someone first proposed the idea at a club meeting? What about cost, insurance, maintenance? Do you have to do special tests for driving and who can drive? (no doubt someone a bit older to keep the insurance costs downs ). Autoexpress tells me you can get a passable minibus which will last a few years for 3k or so and lots of clubs have that kind of spare money in their bank balence. I guess there is loss on depreciation, but with low interest rates that dead money is loosing some of its value anyway.

[frostbite]

Where do the squeezed middle go? I have slaved for hours to extract these numbers from various results - they are probably wrong. The numbers represent the number of M21+M35+M40 at each event (sort of – for some events it is the number of people who entered M21, M35, M40 instead). For multi-days I have selected one day and used that. Sorry I have only counted men – pure laziness.

Scottish 6 days day 6, 303
London City Race, 257
Jk day 3, 223
CSC final Brown course, 128
BOC long, 123
BOC middle, 112
BOC sprint, 104
Northern Champs, 42
White Rose Classic, 40
Aire level B regional Kilnsey, 22
Tim Watkins Trophy, 20
Aire level D Wednesday evening sprint Hawksworth, 16
Aire level C Urban event Settle, 15

So, what your squeezed middle likes best is traditional orienteering in a remote part of the country. What he likes second best is urban orienteering in the middle of the capital city. Not much to go on there.

What makes the 6 days, the London City Race and the JK so much more popular with this age group than the various British Champs, regional champs and bog-standard badge events? And what about the Wednesday evening event, where the squeezed middle made up a third of the participants?

This is what I think – the top 3 events are the must-do events that most people want to do, if not every year then at least some of the time. The various BOCs are a must-do for the serious orienteer but less so for the more recreational orienteer. (Ignore the CSC). The rest just don’t matter. Whether it is a level A championship, a level C urban or whatever you aren’t going to attract very many M21-40s from very far away, even for a high quality area like High Dam or a fun-packed holiday weekend like the White Rose.

5 or 6 big events a year, and everything else is just local, whatever level it’s at.

[DM]

I'm interested in the practicalities of the MDOC minibus. How long was the pregnant pause when someone first proposed the idea at a club meeting? What about cost, insurance, maintenance? Do you have to do special tests for driving and who can drive? (no doubt someone a bit older to keep the insurance costs downs ). Autoexpress tells me you can get a passable minibus which will last a few years for 3k or so and lots of clubs have that kind of spare money in their bank balence. I guess there is loss on depreciation, but with low interest rates that dead money is loosing some of its value anyway.

I wasn't there when the first bus was bought but when the second one was discussed the pause was remarkably short as all in the club knew it was the right thing to do.

The then minibus "master" did write an article that was published, can't remember if it was Focus or Compassport covering the cost aspects. Insurance does fall in cost with increasing age but over 65s? are not allowed to drive these things.

Bus is also used by other groups which helps on costs.

[Angry Haggis]

The numbers represent the number of M21+M35+M40 at each event (sort of – for some events it is the number of people who entered M21, M35, M40 instead). For multi-days I have selected one day and used that. Sorry I have only counted men – pure laziness.

Scottish 6 days day 6, 303
London City Race, 257
Jk day 3, 223
CSC final Brown course, 128
BOC long, 123
BOC middle, 112
BOC sprint, 104
Northern Champs, 42
White Rose Classic, 40
Aire level B regional Kilnsey, 22
Tim Watkins Trophy, 20
Aire level D Wednesday evening sprint Hawksworth, 16
Aire level C Urban event Settle, 15

A few more for you:

LOK Level D Thursday evening, 48: here
SLOW Level D Tuesday evening, 45: here
DFOK Level D Wednesday evening, 41: here
CHIG Level D Tuesday evening, 39

[Angry Haggis]

To follow on from this, I have a copy of the results for all events last year that were listed on the BOF results page, so I ran a query (a lot less painful than your process I think!):

2011 results, most Level Ds missing. Events with greater than 50 M21/35/40s in them.

Code: Select all

328   Level B      Scottish 6 Days - 2011 - Day 3   Creag Mhic Chailein
324   Level B      Scottish 6 Days - 2011 - Day 1   Dunollie & Ganavan
322   Level B      Scottish 6 Days - 2011 - Day 2   Ardnaskie
306   Level B      Scottish 6 Days - 2011 Day 5   Lochnell & Shenavillie
301   Level B      Scottish 6 Days - 2011 - Day 4   Torinturk
288   Level B      Scottish 6 Days - 2011 - Day 6   Ardchattan
271   Level A      JAN KJELLSTROM ORIENTEERING FESTIVAL   Tyrella South
253   Level B   SLOW   The Fourth City of London Race   City of London
250   Level A      JAN KJELLSTROM ORIENTEERING FESTIVAL   Slieve Croob
229   Level A      JAN KJELLSTROM ORIENTEERING FESTIVAL   Stranmillis University College
170   Level A   SYO    Individual   Wharncliffe and Greno Woods
128   Level A   DVO   CompassSport Cup Final   Longshaw
115   Level A   SO   British Middle Distance Championships   Worthlodge Forest
102   Level A   SO   British Sprint Championships - Qualifying Heats   Brighton & Sussex Universities
95   Level A   SO   British Sprint Championships - Final   Brighton & Sussex Universities
93   Level A   TVOC   TVOC Southern Championships National Event, FCC and UK Cup   Hambleden
90   Level B   SHUOC   Harvester Relays   Ecclesall Woods
83   Level B   EUOC   EUOC Burns Weekend - Urban Race   Edinburgh City
77   Level B   CUOC   Cambridge City Race   Coe Fen, Cambridge City Centre
74   Level B   LOC   Bigland   Bigland
71   Level B   EUOC   EUOC Burns Weekend - SoSOL, incorporating ESOA Champs. 2010   Holyrood Park
71   Level B   SOC   November Classic Regional Event   Busketts Lawn
64   Level B   LOC   Holme Fell   Holme Fell
63   Level A   ESOC   Scottish Individual Championships   Auchingarrich
56   Level B   SN   SN Regional Event   Wisley and Ockham Common
55   Level C   WCH   WCH Regional and WMOA League 9   Beaudesert, Cannock Chase
55   Level B   HH   HH SE League and SE Long Championships Regional Ranking Event   Ashridge
54   Level B   MDOC   Twin Peak 2011   Torver Back Common
54   Level B   GO   GO Regional Event (SE League)   Redlands
53   Level B   MV   MV Regional Event (inc Compass Sport Cup/Trophy heat)   Ranmore Common
53   Level B   HOC   Springtime-in-Shropshire Weekend   Mortimer Forest - High Vinnals
53   Level B   HOC   Springtime-in-Shropshire Weekend   Brampton Bryan
52   Level B   JOK   JOK Chasing Sprint   Shotover
50   Level B   EBOR   White Rose Day 1 Classic Ditance Race   Stony Marl Moor and Pye Rigg
50   Level B   MDOC   Twin Peak 2011 and NWOL   Bleathwaite Common

and 2012 to date:

Code: Select all

242   Level A      JK Weekend - Day 2   Dunalastair
224   Level A      JK Weekend - Day 3   Craig a'Barns
199   Level A      JK Weekend - Day 1 - Sprint   Livingston Centre
118   Level A      British Orienteering Championships   Dalegarth
111   Level A   EBOR   British Middle Distance Orienteering Championships   Srensall Common
105   Level A   EBOR   British Sprint Champs - prologue   
84   Level C   EUOC   EUOC Burns Weekend - Urban Race incorporating SOUL 1   TBC
69   Level B   BKO   BKO Concorde Chase Level B Event   Yateley Heath and Minley Woods
67   Level C   EUOC   EUOC Burns Weekend incorporating SoSOL 1   TBC
58   Level D   CUOC   BUCS 2012 - Relay   Bigland
56   Level B   BOK   Mike Nelson BOKTrot & ASO Ind Champs   Beechenhurst
54   Level B   WCH   WMOA CompassSport Cup & Trophy Heat   Brereton Spurs
50   Level D   CUOC   BUCS 2012 - Individual   Loughrigg


SQL was: SELECT count(*), e.level, e.club, e.name, e.venue FROM bofpoints_coursepoints cp, bofpoints_eventcourses ec, bofpoints_events e where cp.bof_event_id = ec.bof_event_id and cp.bof_eventcourse_id = ec.bof_eventcourse_id and e.bof_event_id = ec.bof_event_id and gender = 'M' and yob > 1966 and yob < 1991 and date > '2010-12-31' and date <= '2011-12-31' group by e.bof_event_id having count(*) >= 50 order by count(*) desc;

[DJM]

Would be handy to see what proportion of the overall entry they were too ...