Closed and open clubs

[Ravinous]

I am not aware of a closed club not having an 'extras' clause in their constitution. ShUOC, JOK, OUOC all allow for members who do not strictly qualify for what the club was set up for. Eg Hallam runners running for ShUOC. Brookes students running for OUOC. OUOC runners running for JOK. Even if someone can name a 'strict' closed club, they can just change their constitution and allow, for eg 20% non-members (which is typical) and justifications can be made stating it is for people who train/live in the uni town, or study in a neighbouring institution that doesnt have an O club, or whatever link really. This is not against the rules. It does make closed clubs pretty meaningless however. If we are to have closed clubs, for whatever reason, they should be that, and not what we have now imho. I dont think people want that however, so I propose scrapping the whole open/closed club thing, and just have 'clubs'. You can join as many clubs 'second claim' as you want. Running Relay Leagues, UK Cups, etc. in the same calendar year you have to run for the same club all year to be eligible. Kinda like we have.
I fail to see the advantage of having the open/closed club distinction anymore.

[Snail]

I'd be happy with this. But the logic of having a 1st claim club is surely that you have to run for them if they want you in their team. Which then means students either have to make their home club their 2nd claim club, or possibly not get to run for their uni team.

The alternative is perhaps to return to a situation where closed clubs are just that - which is what most of them started life as. This might mean that they can no longer cover students in other institutions; staff of instituions; former members; families of current/former members; others who help at with events; etc - which is what some of them now seem to get away with. It might also mean that ex-members clubs can't really be justified, unless they become open clubs in their own right.

[NeilC]

I think it would be unfortunate if University students have to decide between representing their University at the major relays and their club/association at CSC/YBT/JIRCS etc. Common sense suggests that they should be allowed to do that, even if other aspects of the open/closed club situation could be tightened up.

[greywolf]

Until someone at BOF gets their arse in gear and sorts out their IT system it's all a bit hypothetical debating how many clubs anyone can compete for...

[awk]

Running Relay Leagues, UK Cups, etc. in the same calendar year you have to run for the same club all year to be eligible. Kinda like we have....
I fail to see the advantage of having the open/closed club distinction anymore.

Disagree with you completely - I see big advantages. OK, so the rules might need tightening up on closed clubs, but as far as I'm aware nobody has yet pushed the envelope on these rules, and the distinction has and continues to be useful. So, you run for your university club at say the JK. Then your uni club decides not run BRC or the Harvester - result is not only those competitors missing out, but the home club (or vice-versa), and thus the race itself. Or you run in the CS Cup for your open club - no chance then of running for your uni any time else.

Yes, you could have rules that make exceptions, but that gets messy, whereas the system of one open and one closed club in a year is pretty straightforward, and has generally worked well.

Seems like a lot of unnecessary brouhaha over a rule that has worked well (most of this thread actually not being related to this subject at all!), and, in practice actually continues to work well, even if British Orienteering needs to get itself sorted out.

[Ravinous]

AWK - you seem to be unaware of the rules...
The UK Relay Rules state "Individual competitors may represent one club in the the UKRL each year. Any individual competitor who intends to run for multiple clubs in UKRL races in a single year shall notify the UKRL coordinator in advance of which club he would like to represent in the UKRL; otherwise he shall be considered to be representing the first club that he runs for that year."

I am not saying that you cant run another UK Relay league for another club, it is just you can only score for one.

I am not saying dont run CSC for your 'home' club and UK Relay League races for your Uni (competitively).

I admit my reference about UK Cup is pointless as it is an individual competition and you could run all 16 races for a different club and it doesnt matter.

In orienteering, your club only matters in the small number of relay and club events we have.

What is the distinction between an open and closed club? There is no difference between an open and a closed club. How about having a closed club ONLY for people running in Nottingham and in the consitution they allow for 20% of members coming from outside the Nottingham area. Is it a closed club? Or is it in fact actually just NOC. According to my experience, 'closed clubs' have been in fact 'open' for years. Let me tell you a story.
When GG started running for ShUOC as a member of Hallam Uni, I asked ShUOC for proof in their constitution and it allowing non Sheff Uni members. I got back a load of examples of people in the past who had run for ShUOC and were not Sheffield Uni Studs. On pushing, I still was not sent anything. Now I didint want to upset the apple cart and I explained other clubs like JOK/OUOC allow for a percentage of non-members and sent them a constitution from them. Then I got back a 'ShUOC' constitution with the non-members paragraph cut and pasted in from the constitution I had sent.
So they hadnt got their paperwork in order, maybe they never had, whatever, the fact is that they could have had whoever they wanted in their ShUOC team. It is a noddy system. I dont think people want absolute closed clubs. Most closed clubs accept all sorts of 'extras' and thus, it does in fact make them no different from open clubs.

I have yet to hear any reason to keep open/closed distinction. All clubs are in fact open. Run for whatever club in whatever competition and only score/count in club/team comps if the rules allow.

[StefB]

well done to the SYO team that won the M18 British Relays today!

[Spookster]

well done to the SYO team that won the M18 British Relays today!

They certainly look like a team

[awk]

AWK - you seem to be unaware of the rules...

I'm very aware of the rules - British Orienteering rules that is. The UK Relay League may, indeed, have additional tighter rules for the specific competition (as do one or two others), but British Orienteering rules are as I stated: in particular, see rule 3.2.

So - whilst your team might not be eligible for UK Relay League points if you ran for your other club, it would remain eligible for medals/trophies etc.

What is the distinction between an open and closed club? There is no difference between an open and a closed club.

See rule 1.2.8 It's not sufficiently tight, I agree, but there is one.

[Blonde bombshell]

Congratulations to DEE for pushing 'SYO' so close on Sun!

[MAPS]

Or was that "DEE" ?

[Dave]

Or was that "DEE" ?

no.

[SJC]

Congratulations to DEE for pushing 'SYO' so close on Sun!

and time for 'SYO' to change their name if it is no longer representative of their membership.

[Fourth]

Or was that 'DEE' ?

no.

Uh, yes. At least the SYO runners were from the same country as the club.

[LostAgain]

Congratulations to DEE for pushing 'SYO' so close on Sun!

Looks like both teams have gained from their January transfers.