INT SoSOL5 Riccarton

[andy]

Actually, what should be done after this kind of thing is for the organising people to say 'yes that was ambiguous, sorry, no dsqs will be enforced'. Yes it's slightly unfair for the people who might have gone out of their way to avoid such things, but there are so many micro luck factors in orienteering that in the grand scheme of things it won't make much difference, everyone will be happy and the organising team will have learned something.

[graeme]

A lot of the problem is about proportionality. Most sports have a sensible and proportionate penalty for misdemeanor, and throwing someone out of the whole race
for accidentally cutting a difficult-to-interpret corner, or climbing down an "uncrossable wall" of zero height on the approach side, for little gain is disproportionate. That's why it isn't going to happen.

I really enjoyed the event today, Jegor's map is excellent, but I do feel that placing a control behind a "possible to cross but mapped uncrossable" feature is something one should try to avoid.

If it were up to me, I'd map both those features as crossable (and I now have the OCAD file).

Anyway, feel free to own up at http://www.interlopers.routegadget.co.uk

Graeme (not an official at this one)

[andypat]

Thanks for getting all the results etc up so quick guys.

Graeme - your link to RG works but the one on the INT website isnt correct

[EddieH]

The logical conclusion to your sentiment Andy is that we scrap the legal system. After all we'll never catch every thief/ murderer .... so we'd better let them all off

[andy]

The logical conclusion to your sentiment Andy is that we scrap the legal system. After all we'll never catch every thief/ murderer .... so we'd better let them all off

wow.

It's obvious I'd be better hitting my head off a brick wall on this one so I'll just go and stand in the corner while planners/controllers/mappers get it wrong and 'we' continue to not know what to do about it. (at least while we all get educated about how to get it right by British Orienteering)

[frog]

I'm with Andy and Graeme on the keeping this stuff in proportion view. This isn't like thieves and the legal system, it's people out for a fun run in a complex sport who sometimes get things wrong accidentally and where sometimes the "right" thing to do isn't obvious.
Looking at the routegadget map then Mharky is right in that the hedge in the control 10 example isn't dark green but medium green, the colour difference is less obvious on the real map.

[andypat]

Looking at the routegadget map then Mharky is right in that the hedge in the control 10 example isn't dark green but medium green, the colour difference is less obvious on the real map.

You cant really tell properly from RG but if you fold the map over so the hedge is placed next to the legend (like you could do this during a race I know!) it is clearly black/green uncrossable, its just the narrowness of the line that makes it look less dark.

The solution to that particular issue is surely to change ISSOM to show uncrossable hedges as thick black lines the same as walls. Maybe they could have a different tag to fences so show they were hedges or something.

[EddieH]

I absolutely agree with you andypat. The impassable green symbol is poor and can easily be misinterpreted. (In this case particularly with the wording "should" in the details, I would not vote for dqing someone crossing the hedge in the example. The thick black line in the top example is not ambiguous however and by ignoring people that ignore the rules here all we are doing is fostering a culture of lack of concern with the rules which quite apart from any unfairness criteria will inevitably lead at some point to people crossing features that are marked uncrossable due to permission reasons and potentially bring the sport into disrepute, and lose areas.

I also agree that mappers need to think hard about what truly should be designated uncrossable.

[graeme]

You cant really tell properly from RG but if you fold the map over so the hedge is placed next to the legend (like you could do this during a race I know!) it is clearly black/green uncrossable, its just the narrowness of the line that makes it look less dark.

If you look in the OCAD file then...

the line of bushes is 0.4mm wide 50%black 100%green, as per ISSOM. The legend (and other) hedges are 0.6mm wide 50%black 100%green.

The "wall" is of zero height on the approach side, and three 1m steps on the other. It is mapped with the 0.4mm wide black line "uncrossable wall" symbol, not the 0.3mm wide black line "passable crag" symbol.

Expecting people at a local event to have a good enough knowledge of ISSOM to recognise the legend is wrong and figure all this out is ridiculous.

The time involved in either infraction is trivial compared with following, dodgy mapping or seeing people punching at a bingo pit, which happens all the time at SoSoL level events.

Last time I was on Deeside several "forest orienteers" asked me where we were, seems to be endemic in forest races and I've no idea why they're never DQed. Forest orienteers are a bunch of cheats if you ask me

[King Penguin]

Expecting people at a local event to have a good enough knowledge of ISSOM to recognise the legend is wrong and figure all this out is ridiculous.

... or expecting people to accurately distinguish between a 0.3mm and 0.4mm black line whilst on the run.

[AncientFootsteps]

Guilty! I did go through the hedge at ‘Control 10’. Having read the final info I took it to mean that we shouldn’t damage hedges by smashing through them. As the hedge in question had a gap wide enough to run through it didn’t seem to apply.
I did also start to clamber down the bank at ‘Control 7’ but was politely warned off by graeme. When I questioned him later as to how to tell whether a bank / wall / hedge is clamberable he gently pointed me to the map key. Which I hadn’t perused at the start.
Andy’s post is clearly not saying that anarchy should rule and that cheating be allowed. It’s just that we need to avoid relying on microscopic details which cannot be easily understood - or consistently enforced.
This extra complexity does seem to go with the territory on urban style maps. Clearly there is a market for street racing but shouldn’t these events be badged separately where everyone knows what they are getting and which rules apply? Variety in SoSOLs is welcome but surely this is a step too far.
My personal view is that apart from the rather dull terrain / minimal navigation choices / silly rules / slippery paths I just don’t want to be pounding the pavements – gave that up twenty years ago due to wear and tear on ancient joints. (Why come to the event at all then? Well there aren’t many SoSOLs this year – this was my closest.)
I’m grateful to Interlopers for putting on an event at short notice but in future please let’s have more mud / grass / trees and less tarmac.

[smf]

Expecting people at a local event to have a good enough knowledge of ISSOM to recognise the legend is wrong and figure all this out is ridiculous.

But yesterdays event was a Regional level C event not a Local level D event.

[Sunlit Forres]

If urban O is going to be a way of attracting people who wouldn't go to a forest orienteering event, surely we can't expect relative newcomers to grasp this kind of fine detail.

Except for the elite level, events should be planned to avoid the temptation to infringe OOB or to cross the "uncrossable". Some of us forget that many people who go orienteering don't (and never will) have the slightest interest in whether a hedge should be 0.4 mm or 0.6 mm thick. Graeme said it all.

[EddieH]

Thick black lines may not be crossed - normally this is obvious if you look at the map without bothering how many mm they are. This is NOT difficult to take on board. All newcomers could have this pointed out to them before they run.

The green/back mix is however rather a different proposition as it is very hard to differentiate from dark green "fight".

[graeme]

But yesterdays event was a Regional level C event not a Local level D event.

It was local for the complete beginner who arrived in our car, ran for a made-up club, and won
I'll have to quiz him on whether 0.3mm is "thick" (521.1) or "thin" (203), I'm sure that'll inspire him to come again. And I'll make sure he doesn't come to any more local Regional level C events until he's passed his ISSOM exam