Goverment Public Consultation on Sale of Woodland

[Scott]

The Sport and Recreation Alliance (formerly the CCPR) has announced its "New Year's Resolutions" for 2012, one of which is "improve access for our members to the UK’s woodland and forests". A coordinated campaign across different NGBs should help, and I believe that BOF (via Peter Brett) has had some involvement in the SRA's forest-access work so far.

[Clive Coles]

I don't know if anyone from SEOA:SAX/DFOK has picked up on this consultation ~ just 2 days left to this particular consultation period.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/infd-8sdl7r

Looks to be a fairy small Country Park ~ don't recognise the name or know if any "O" activities/events are ever staged there.

This is very much a sign of things to come.

Even though the Foresty Panel have yet to report back to Government, DEFRA is still taking steps to cut their funding costs. The Forestry Commission is in the process of being restructured and jobs are being cut.

Our cover in the Sandlings (SUFFOC land) was halved last month ~ we are now down to just 4 posts who cover an area from the north of Suffolk to much of Essex.

Kent is soon to be merged in with East Anglia to make up and enlarged East of England Region which runs from the Wash to Dover ! The Regional management will be located in Thetford (Norfolk): sub offiices, with a reduced headcount, will I believe operate from Bedgebury (Kent), Thames Chase (London Borough Havering) and Rendlesham (Suffolk).

So FC are needing to look at ways of raising revenue and increasing community involvement. This consultation is one example ~ doubtless more like this will be occuring throughout PFE of England.

Orienteers need to keep a lookout and become engaged with the consultation process. We are so dependant on access to Forestry Commission areas ~ the threats to our forests have not gone away.

[SeanC]

Thanks Clive, I've passed on this information to the relevant contact person for Jeskyns.

If FC are going more commercial, it could be an opportunity as more visitors centres/cafes etc get people out of the towns and into the woods where we can sell orienteering. We've seen this at neighbouring Shorne Country Park.

[Clive Coles]

Yes Sean. I agree with you.

A more recreational/commercially focused FC will bring opportunities; it does however have it's drawbacks as where they invest in infrastructure this does result in a need to protect that investment.

A big problem we have had to face in EAOA forests is the development and spread of "approved" Mountain Bike circuits. FC have had to ensure that health and safety concerns are addressed ~ this has constrained our ability to plan courses through the forests.

Certain areas are now "no-go", orienteers we are not allowed to run along any path on a mountain bike circuit. There is always the threat that if we do not comply we will be refused permissions on subsequent occassions.

The real key is to remain engaged with what is happening ~ if orienteers around the country participate in consultations our sport will be noticed by those who run our public open spaces. If we have a place around the table we have the chance to influence the outcomes and to state our concerns.

[Red Adder]

And I'm not sure if the off-road cyclists actually pay anything for the priviledge - at High Lodge (Thetford) they generally avoid parking in the extortionate FC car park.

They also have a few cowboys in their midst - some with a very cavalier attitude to private land and PROW (ie only allowed on bridleways). They also have a trail in another EA forest but some happily go "off-piste" even though they know they are going through embargoed conservation zones. They must drive the conformant cyclists nuts.

Of course it can work in our favour as the line I will take with FC at my next event is if the presence of the cyclist can not be predicted and confined to a set path how is it fair when we are paying for access for us to be limited in where we go.

[Clive Coles]

Mountain bikers do generate indirect revenue for FC. The clearly don't pay anything to FC for access unless they (like us) are staging a formal event, but their increasing presence in the forests encourage the establishment of a Bike hire concession. This in turn pays a rent to the FC which contributes to the budget the FC have to spend on providing facilities in the forest.

So FC gain from establishing a mountain bike circuit around and through their forests. The concessions raise more income per annum than is raised from selling a few permanent orienteering course maps. Both sports are charged access fees for formal events. If FC have to choose between keeping orienteers and mountain bikers happy I am afraid the odds are stacked in the biker's favour.

That's why it is important for orienteers to join in with any consultation.

[SeanC]

Lots of mountain bikers are exactly the sort of people who could get into orienteering.

How about a mountain bike permanent orienteering course?

[Clive Coles]

Interesting idea ~ do you know of any being set up ?

We have found to our cost that where an off-road mountain bike track runs through an area of depressions, FC decrees the area to be off-limit for our foot-based sport.

We had a member who was also a co-founder member of an off-road cycling club. He had an O map of one of our best bits of orienteering forest. Therein lies the problem.

We took our eye off the ball only to find that the new FC appproved cycle track was designed to visit all of the significant depressions on our map. Can hardly blame the cyclists ~ that's after all where they get their fun.

We now have a problem ~ FC are stalling on allowing us to create even a permanemt orienteering course on that same footprint. Understandably a safety concern ~ they don't want high speed cyclists and runners on the same paths.

Would be Interested to learn if other O clubs are having similar problems sharing areas with off-road mountain bikers

[King Penguin]

I begin to see a parallel between foot O / MTB in FC woods and white water canoeing / fishing. There is a good argument for rivers being regarded as rights of way with right of passage but many angling clubs and riparian owners do not see it that way. It took a mass trespass on Kinder Scout and then another 50 + years before land access became more open in many places.
On some rivers a compromise has been agreed, with anglers accepting canoeists on agreed dates / at certain times of the year in exchange for non-use at others.
Perhaps orienteering could arrange something similar with MTB / FC ? I accept it would not help the establishment of permanent courses, but would it be unreasonable to hope that MTBs might agree to keep out of an area on a few specific dates for orienteering events to be held ? Surely forests are big enough to accommodate all.
(N.B. I accept both land and water access rights are different - and far better - in Scotland (and most of Europe) than in England and Wales)

[SeanC]

I don't know if anyone has done a mountain bike permanent orienteering course. Anyone else?

I think if anyone was thinking of trying it, it might be worth working with the bike hire people at these places as these are the obvious people to help sell the maps. Maybe charge £3 for a map to the rider and let the bike hire place keep 50%? It might be of interest to them as it would give people reasons to come back to that forest and ride again.

[ifor]

I belive there is a permanent MTBO course at Moors Valley Country park. It's a bit of wood that realy brings in the cash from the car parking alone which is not cheap and it has always been very busy when I have been there for an MTBO event.

[Red Adder]

Sadly I don't think O and MB are particularly compatible, particularly in the south, as we both want to use similar terrain, which is in short supply. It is made worse as MB is not confined to organised events so there is every chance of meeting them in the forest and whilst fairly quiet they pack a lot of momemtum and metal.

The FC solution would probably for us to pay for a total closure of part of the forest on the one day every 2/3 years would want to hold an event (and it would not be cheap - several hundred pounds). I have found organised motor cycle clubs who have set fixtures, create useful enduro trails but otherwise leave our dates alone are actually far less of a problem to us.

[DaveK]

by SeanC » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:09 pm

Lots of mountain bikers are exactly the sort of people who could get into orienteering.

How about a mountain bike permanent orienteering course?

Bedgebury Forest, where Clive suggests one of the FCs new sub offices will, be would be good as a permanent MTBO course. It already has a 13k mountain bike track (good for a run round on weekdays when quiet!) and is being heavily promoted for this and the family cycle routes. There is a POC there already, but it has essentially been lost to orienteering because of the £8 parking fee the FC charge. (I park on a lay by next to the forest and run/cycle in.)

[andypat]

I'm not sure that the sort of people who go to MTB trails for the thrill of the ride would value the additional cerebral aspect of navigating and having to stop/start every so often at controls. My mates that are into mountain biking are also into rock/ice climbing and rat racing. One of these is an ex-orienteer who has no intention of coming back to the sport.

[SeanC]

That might be true in general but in every group there is a percentage who might get into orienteering - after all many people like orienteering not really for the map reading but for the adrenaline of bashing through terrain. The active types that go to country parks and people who like a bit of mountain biking are surely going to have a greater percentage of those interested in orienteering than the standard UK couch potatoe?

Yea, that's a pain at Bedgebury. At least in Kent there are lots of other forests (as "good" as Bedgebury). I think £8 parking isn't the end of the world for orienteers if we get organised and meet somewhere to share cars, though that probably only works well for local events.

The £8 parking model is putting a visit to these areas into the med/high value attraction category, ie something you do a few times a year and no doubt there is a season ticket option for people who go there regularly. However beginners definately prefer somewhere they are familiar with and are probably less bothered about the high parking fees, especially if there's lots of other things to do afterwards and a nice cafe.

Interesting to see that at Moors Valley has lots about orienteering on their website ... coaching courses etc as well as the permanent courses. Might be interesting to hear from those involved - does that help get access for orienteering events etc? Does it help publicise/develop the sport locally?