Controls in the wrong places

[tomtom]

No protests were made about the men's course.

There were however, a few protests made by the junior men on course 3, by some who lost time or missed it altogether-not really a coincidence. The control 155 was definitely in the wrong place.
I know this because having attacked the control from the crag to the south, I saw the re-entrant, and expected to see the control. Instead I saw the red tape and I swear it had number 155 written on it. I may be wrong about this because I was about to enter headless chicken mode to find the control.
Then I ran up to the open spur and ran down it looking in the re-entrant and saw the control. Leaving the control the open patch was to my left up the hill.
I don't know anyone who I spoke to afterwards who thought the control was in the right place.

The woman's tractrac also clearly shows that the control was too far down the hill.

Also on day 2 I spoke to a few people who were certain control 186 was too high up the re-entrant, on the far west edge of the circle.

Control 155

Control 155.jpg (49.38 KiB) Viewed 6143 times

[Gnitworp]

Maybe an 'upper part' description qualifier would have helped with 186?

[King Penguin]

I interpreted 186 on Dunalastair as "upper (W) end" from the map, went to that end of the reentrant - and no control ! I then spent 6 mins in and just outside the circle before I found it. I'm certain there was also another E-W parallel reentrant on the ground which is not on the map - I went to the W end of that as well.

[cbg]

AH control 186 - I would certainly like a review of that area. I attacked (I thought)from the clearing to E, having come around the spur from S. But the rentrants didn't really match. Having run W then SW, I re-located on the clearing with a boulder to SW/W. Going back NE I saw a body leaning over a control, so never really 'navigated' to the feature. I can believe that it was in the right place, but it was the one point on the area that I couldn't match the map to the ground. I shall be very careful there next time.

[PG]

I was clean to 186 after some hesitation because I didn’t read that the reentrant effectively split just east of the control, though the northern “leg” was a long thin col. The western “leg” with the control seemed the less obvious leg on the ground. I found that the split was difficult to grasp from the map as the form-line to the west was partly obscured by the circle, at least on the 1:10,000 map. It is under the number 3 in the RG extract above.

[mharky]

I think that's what most people did. There is a ~N-S re-entrant between the double knolls to the right and the larger knoll to the left. The southern knoll on the right had control 103 (under the #3 on the sample above). I ran from this, through the N-S reentrant, past the control (186) in the ~E-W reentrant and then over the knoll with the bolder on it wit the southern most reentrant to my left. I thought the contours were absolutely fine, and the control was in the right place.

The problem is, as PG has mentioned, that when people came up the normal contour line reentrant (with the tag) from the open-ish patch they assumed it will run into their form-line reentrant, but it didn't, it fed into the N-S one. I think the direction of the tag may have given this impression as it slightly aligns with the E-W reentrant. But a tag merely shows which was is down.

[awk]

I approached 186 over the flattish spur to the SE of the control, coming out above the clearing in the re-entrant. From there you got a good view of the contours, and I would agree with Mharky that that natural line out of the re-entrant fed into the N-S 'col' re-entrant, into which I saw at least one person on my course, and a couple of others off an unidentified course, running. The re-entrant that the control was actually in (and it was visible from where I approached across the spur) was shallower, with its mouth raised above the N-S re-entrant. Apart from that, the positions of the features looked about right to me.

[King Penguin]

My first approach was up the reentrant. I admit I did not pace the length of it but I saw what looked like a distinct headwall ahead of me at the W end (I thought) of the reentrant - and no control, which must have been hidden beyond the "headwall". There was what appeared to be an unmapped reentrant turning N, which I accept would have been the "gap" between the hills, but it was far deeper than any (seemingly) non-existent continuation to the W.

[Gnitworp]

Maybe the contour with the tag, below the re-entrant/col junction, needed extending up to the junction and turning slightly northwards, with the form lines above eased away from it, to show that re-entrant 186 was an offshoot higher up.

[cbg]

mharky's second paragraph makes sense. The circle on the 1:10,000 map is larger than the Routegadget one and cries out for some line cutting (additional demands on the planner(s)). As I stated - I will take more care there in future.

[Arnold]

Ah good, I missed that one as well, and it all makes sense now. It wasn't strictly wrong but not as clear as it should have been.

I actually think the whole of that early area of Dunalastair (controls 1-2-3-11-12 on M35 but lots of other controls too) was a bit dodgy. The veg boundary thing was part of it but it all didn't quite make sense. If you look at winsplits that's where most of the time was lost too.

[tomtom]

Ok so I think the general consensus is that control 186 was in the right place, just the features around it were mapped unclearly.
I still don't think this was the case with 155 but there we go.

What would actually happen if the control was to be found in the wrong place? Will the leg before and after be taken out or does the entire course have to be void?

[mharky]

If a control is found to be in the wrong place then the whole course is voided. This has happened before, JK 2005 middle race on Brown Clee Hill, so the overall trophy was awarded to the winner of the long race.

[madmike]

Mharkey is correct, voiding the course is the only option at this level and then only if there has been a formal complaint/protest submitted.

However, it is also worth pointing out that at lower level events there is some flexibility for controllers to agree to the removal of legs to allow results to stand.

[graeme]

Unlike the others, I hopped over to 186 from the reentrant to the south. The flag was much further west (left) than I expected, in what looked to be rather flat and green. I was confident of my location at all times.

I suspect both 186 and 155 are in the right feature, but quite far from the centre of the circle.

I can't recall this ever leading to a voiding, indeed some people even believe that the rules say you shouldn't put the circle where the control is (n.b. despite the first post, the rules don't specify point and line features, and are the same for forest and sprint).

There is precedent for reinstating someone who found a tape with the right number on it and ran on, assuming the control was missing. (G.Riemersma, @ Scottish Relays), AND for not voiding a course despite controls being missing for some of the time. Maybe Tom should have run on after finding the tape?