British Middles

[frog]

Someone said she was also a member of a British club. If she isn't then she shouldn't get it. The British club should be the club she puts on the entry form to get the prize though.

[housewife]

The people that should be eligible should be uk passport holders and those having lived here and competed for a british club for at least 6 months prior to the comp. You could say that anyone who didn't meet those criteria to declare themselves ineligible. If they fail to do so, that's their own sad problem (all that lying, just to get a medal!). With these criteria, Linnea would not get the trophy, but the likes of Aislinn, Riina, Matthias Mahr, Anne Straube etc are all eligible, which I think makes sense.

If you go to a foreign country on holiday and run a wre that happens to be the national champs, I think most people would be pretty embarassed to take home a trophy. Imagine having it on your mantle piece, telling people you are the mongolian middle distance champion.

I hope Linnea stays in Britain a while (and if she hasn't joined a club yet, ESOC have lovely kit..) . Great to compete against such talent, and hopefully it will help us all raise our game. We should look at getting all of the best british talent to all national champs, and hopefully attracting more visiting forigners ot spice things up a bit (without walking off with the trophies, obviously). How about a UK Cup of all british champs races, JK and scottish champs (people would come for 2015 training) open to everyone from everywhere, with cash prizes of £1000, £500, £250, £100, £50, £50 for the overall result. The got sponsorship for PWT afterall. Make our races the races people travel all over europe for.

[frog]

If someone's main residence at that time is in Britain though I don't see why they should be eligible if they have lived here 6 months and ineligible if they've been here only 4 or 5.
Two excellent orienteers could come to the UK for a year, one arrives 1 month before the British champs and the other 11 months before. Why should only one of them be able to win a prize? The one who would be eligible is going abroad in a month anyway so wouldn't be able to keep the trophy long as trophies usually can't leave the country.

I lived in NZ for a year and competed in the NZ champs. I didn't win anything because I am rubbish, but if I had been a top orienteer would have thought it unfair not to win a trophy because for that year I considered myself a New Zealander. I certainly wasn't competing, working or paying tax in any other countries.

[Toni]

I voted for Claire. I do think that there needs to be a minimum residency so it is not just individuals on holiday. The line needs to be drawn somewhere and 6, 12, 18, 24 months seem reasonable to me - I personally wouldn't quibble too much about it. For the relays I think once you've been part of a club for 6 months then you should be eligible - it will help integrate you with your club and that has to be a good thing.
Toni

[graeme]

"OK Hal" is not a British club!

True, but you don't have to be in a British club, even now. Bizarrely, foreign clubs are currently eligible to win the British Relays (if they have UK athletes).

Quiz Q: which club won the BRC (open, not age group) with two foreign runners and a third who would have failed a 6-month residency requirement?

[mappingmum]

Linea.
She's resident and she's joined BOF. As a member of BOF she must be a member of a British club. There are many reasons why her club is listed as non-British in the results eg entries system lookup, replicated data, manual input, user or runner error.
Let's keep it simple.

[awk]

If someone's main residence at that time is in Britain though I don't see why they should be eligible if they have lived here 6 months and ineligible if they've been here only 4 or 5.

it all comes back to what one means by "British Champion". If one is going to define that person as someone who is 'British' or belongs in some way to Britain (and presumably one means by that the UK rather than Great Britain), then some lines are going to have to be drawn. So we get some who say that anybody can compete, it's simply a championship held in Britain, some would say it's belonging to BOF or a British club, some would have a residency requirement as minimum (and then define how long), some would go for British citizenship, some would go for birthplace only, etc etc.
Personally, I'd go for British Orienteering member plus one or more of being born in Britain; being a British citizen; resident for one year at the time of the race (relying on self-declaration if necessary). For the British Relays, I'd use the same criteria, with the extra qualification that the club would have to be a British club.
Having said that, I think at least as important is ensuring that the British Champs don't clash with a big international fixture like the Tio-Mila. There's no point in trying to find the best British orienteer if you then deliberately lose loads of them to another race.

We can all argue over the details, but where I do think most appear in agreement is that the new BOF criteria are far too exclusive.

[Arnold]

As much as I love a good discussion, at some point we need to get to a final decision on the whole eligibility question. Or accept that the current decision is here to stay.

What's the way to do that? A motion at next year's AGM (seems it's too late for this one)? Or is there any other option? Any constitutional experts around?

[mark2]

Interesting suggestion from Anthony Cox in France via Oli's AP;

France has a simple rule regarding foreigners competing in the national championships and relays. They let foreigners run in the championships who aren't eligible to win the title. If they win or place, they just don't get the trophy (but do get the goodies).However, you can win the national title if you have been ranked on the national ranking list for the last two years. When you apply for your license at the start of the year, foreigners can submit a form stating what ranking they have been the last two years and that is it. It is a bit harsh in that you have to wait for up to two years before you can win the championship, but at least it is clear, unambiguous and easily monitored. If memory serves me correctly, you can't win two countries' championships in the one year.

Some merit in considering whether an adaption of the ranking type criterion might help here - effectively as an easier for organisers to check surrogate for residence/involvement in UK orienteering. And thus dealing with the Board's reported concerns over application of a residency criterion.

Would need to be an either....or... along the lines that Awk suggests.

[RJ]

Yes, it's all very well considering the abstract and the intricacies of various rules that might, or could be used...... just consider who you are talking about. Put real names to the debate..... consider how real people are being affected. That is where the debate started and the unsatisfactory situation that needs resolving has evolved.

[graeme]

What's the way to do that? A motion at next year's AGM (seems it's too late for this one)? Or is there any other option? Any constitutional experts around?

AGM motion would take two years.
The rule was "clarified" after a protest at the sprints last year, on a timescale of six months, so it certainly was within the power/whim of rules group to change it unilaterally within one year. I expect the Board have noticed there's an issue and will amend it .
A petition to the board is probably the way forward.
Since the two of us were involved in the appeal last year, we may perhaps have more clout if we lead it?

[roadrunner]

Whatever the eligibility requirement may become, surely the way to get round pressure on the organisers, and protests, is to have everyone declare when they enter if they are also entering the British Championships (and maybe the grounds on which they claim to be eligible). Then BOF (not the organisers) could look into any questionable cases BEFORE the event, and on the day the leading eligible competitor is the champion - simples! This is effectively how it works in road-running for the county championships (Berkshire at least), although I must admit I've never heard of a protest being made.

[ianandmonika]

So Monika's UK residency (& BOF membership) since 1967 would be OK!! But BOF told us that was not sufficient.

[madmike]

So Monika's UK residency (& BOF membership) since 1967 would be OK!! But BOF told us that was not sufficient.

I cannot think of a more complelling argument for a residency clause than Monika - come on BOF Board whilst your motivation for changing the eligibility criteria is laudable surely you must now see how the law of unintended consequences is applying to BOC eligibility - we all make errors with the best of intentions and a u-turn is not always a bad thing!

[Kitch]

So, Monika has lived here longer than any British champion for any class below M/W 45...