Inadvertant cheating on ISSOM

[EddieH]

The trouble is that it will happen again and again ........ because unless planning becomes totally annodine urban O will always throw these things up.

There are only 2 things we could do "to ensure they don't happen at the really big events" -

never hold such an event on an ISSOM map, or

plan noddy courses.

As it is clear that average punters won't police themselves, we need to act when we have the clear info - ONLY that way can the culture be changed.

[EddieH]

Incidentally I was also affected by the closed door - that is one of those totally unavaoidable things no point in going on about it - the extra was not significant enough to make the leg totally invalid as happened once at Edinburgh where the leg was rightly removed.

[Mrs H]

Okay = here's a question I'd like a consensual answer to by Saturday.

If you have a wall marked as uncrossable on a route both in and out of a control (depending on which course you are on) and you put a marshal on one side of it, what do you do if someone pops up from the far side with the clear intention of crossing it?

Does your marshal warn them off before they go any further or just take their bib number and disqualify them?

[andypat]

I think in principle you warn them because the whole point of having the wall marked uncrossable is to avoid people crossing it. To let them cross then DQ them doesnt really acheive that and sort of feels like a trap.

If I was the marshall I'd sit on the wall in my yellow bib so i can get a wee laugh at the faces of anyone who realises their mistake.

[andy]

If I was the marshall I'd sit on the wall in my yellow bib so i can get a wee laugh at the faces of anyone who realises their mistake.

This is similar to taping it and I'd vote for this. Don't need to talk to anyone. If they do still cross they deserve to be DSQ

[AndyC]

Another noper (dustytoo) and I were mapping (well I was holding the piece of paper for the ultrasonic tape) in Newcastle City centre for a possible future race and we realised that we had a perfect trap for orienteers. A building in the middle of a square (in front of the Centre for Life for anyone who knows the area) has a short (1.8m long) piece of ornamental wrought iron fence. As it is around 3m high it gets mapped as "uncrossable" but it would be easy to reach through to a control on the opposite side. There is even a bench about 20m away that someone could sit on with a camera to photograph anyone who cheated by reaching through.
Easy trap to set but it tests nothing about the skill of the orienteer and nothing about their fitness.
A good planner shouldn't be looking to trick orienteers but challenge them -so the marshal on the wall says something like "have you looked at this wall on your map?" and arranges the DQ of anyone who still crosses it. (He definitely doesn't say this wall is uncrossable UNLESS it is a requirement from the landowner)

[Urban]

Think marshall needs to be visible from both sides.
If you approach the control and crossing the wall isn't a temptation because its "behind" your route into the control, seeing the marshall on exit will be a reminder not to transgress as you leave.
If on the approach its tempting to cross the wall but you're not reminded from doing so by seeing the marshall because they are the other side of the wall that would probably be slightly unfair.
Having said that just don't cross solid black lines even if on the ground the wall is only a metre high!
Are we talking about a 6ft wall or one that is easily crossable but must not be?
Could putting red/white tape across the top be a solution?

[Mrs H]

The wall is about 5ft tall, you'd have to be pretty determined to get over it and it is clearly marked as uncrossable. you wouldn't cross it by accident and anyone who did so would know they were cheating but it might be perhaps a bit tempting to try thus saving time and avoiding a challenging route choice decision. I can only spare one marshal and I don't think they can be placed to be seen from both sides. I have warned there are marshals on the course and I am bending over backwards to stress the nature of uncrossable features.

It's a really good leg which will make people think.

I'm just trying to decide what to tell my marshal to do if someone tries to cross the wall.

[AndyC]

Could you get a webcam (or an automatic camera -see BBC wildlife) on top of the wall? - otherwise I'd tape

[Darwin]

Until this is sorted out - can we all agree that it makes sense to remove urban results from the rankings?
Thanks Darwin

[Urban]

Ok Mrs H with additional info, I would DSQ anyone who tries to cross the wall, ie they begin to climb it/ their feet have left the ground to heave themselves over, and then tell them not to complete the crossing of the wall.

[andypat]

Until this is sorted out - can we all agree that it makes sense to remove urban results from the rankings?
Thanks Darwin

Yeah - that'll help develop the sport!

and anyone who did so would know they were cheating

Any experienced orienteer! At a recent urban event in Glasgow a local athletic club member who was also into a bit of parkour but attempting his first orienteering event asked me after the race if it was OK to climb walls. Turned out he climbed a wall about 8ft high to get from a road into a control in a car park! Because it was a low key event I think there maybe wasnt as much info around about what not to do and he'd obviously not declared his lack of knowledge before starting. (I'd say he was pretty much the only person at that event who could have got over that wall!)

[70plus]

Okay = here's a question I'd like a consensual answer to by Saturday.

If you have a wall marked as uncrossable on a route both in and out of a control (depending on which course you are on) and you put a marshal on one side of it, what do you do if someone pops up from the far side with the clear intention of crossing it?

Does your marshal warn them off before they go any further or just take their bib number and disqualify them?

I'll go back to what I said yesterday - courses which present this problem should be replanned to make marshalling unnecessary, especially if runners may be crossing in both directions. [I presume you mean 'forbidden' rather than uncrossable? ] If the uncrossability is to avoid offending a landowner, it is essential to reduce the temptation as much as possible.

I have usually behaved correctly in avoiding o-o-b areas, but I have sometimes had mixed feelings about public roads being put o-o-b by the planner. Such a road may clearly offer the best route, so once again planning should ensure that it is not the best option.

[madmike]

I'm just trying to decide what to tell my marshal to do if someone tries to cross the wall.

Can you get hold of a tazer

[dustytoo]

We;ve had the discussion about the meaning of life, the universe and different coloured tape here before. If you do use tape to mean do not cross, use black and yellow tape, not the ubiquitousred and white!