We don't belong here.

[LostAgain]

[quote="King Penguin"]I have checked the JK relay rules again (on BOF website so presumably (hopefully) the latest version. quote]


The JK is a festival and welcome to all comers, surely. As is the O'Ringen, Scottish 6-days etc etc

This thread is surely only relevant for the British Championships?

BOF membership, probably from start of year, should be all that is necessary.

If we want to be pedantic, then rename as BO Membership Champion!!

[sketchweppers]

I had to read the BRC rules recently as one of our 'local' BOF members is visiting relatives in Cumbria that weekend and wishes to join in on of our relay teams at Helsington Barrows. He can only run in the AdHoc class because he is not a 'national' member.
I think that this is equally daft - I realise that one of 'benefits' of national membership is the ability to compete in the national championships, but surely the relay champs is a club competition, so any club member should be allowed to be part of a team, regardless of membership class or nationality.

The other issue I have with the relay champs is the neighbouring club alliance. If you are part of a neighbouring club alliance team you can only be competive in the Men's or Women's premier relay classes, which is good and fine for any adults, but is not child friendly.

Last year at the BRC we entered 3 club teams, and a neighbouring club alliance team in the Women's premier class, but we also had an extra M10 - who joined with two other juniors from our neighbouring club to form a Mini Relay team, and he was rather disapponted that their results were listed as non competitive. We want to encourage him to carry on orienteering and this isn't the way to go. It is very often that small clubs are low on juniors and to get three who actualy fit into one age class for the relay is often difficult.

[Copepod]

In a professional capacity, I sometimes have to help decide on entitlement to disability benefits - and residency is a key requirement, so it is defined, perhaps somewhat oddly, slightly different for different ages of people, whether or not they are originally from other EU countries or other non EU countries etc.

It can be done - and should be within the ability of BO to write & enforce sensible regulations.

[JEP]

The Neighbouring Club alliance rule was brought in by ECG (now defunct) to encourage greater competition in the Elite Classes. This has had some effect but has not made a dramatic difference.

Anyone feeling it is an appropriate rule for other classes needs to approach whatever group take over the work of SCG or JCG. Not sure anything is in place yet.

The rule covers Elites but not sure it would be appropriate to allow such a rule for random classes with random alliances. It would become a bit of a mess and unworkable.

[ianandmonika]

Getting back to the original topic, the message from BO does appear to be 'thanks for your help in the past but in the [wider] interest of BO we don't need you anymore. Hard luck.'

I am sure residency qualification (continuous national BOF member plus last x years council tax bills or whatever - we are all used to providing such proof of residency for all sorts of things) could have been sorted with a little bit of effort.

[King Penguin]

Back on the relay theme (British this time), rules say :
1.4.1 Teams shall only be entered by clubs which are affiliated to British Orienteering or another IOF affiliated National Federation.
1.4.2 Teams are eligible to be British Relay Championships medallists provided that on the day of the competition the club is affiliated to British Orienteering and each of the team members is both a National Member of British Orienteering and a British Citizen. This must be declared at the time of entry to the competition.
1.4.3 All members of a team (except for those in an Ad Hoc class) shall be members of the same club, except in the Men's and Women’s Premier classes where the UK Relay League Neighbouring Clubs Alliances guideline applies. For British teams this is as shown on their current British Orienteering membership card. Non-competitive teams (i.e. teams comprising one or more members who are not qualified under the criteria above) are only allowed to enter the Mixed or Junior Ad hoc classes.

To me, it is not clear whether in 1,4,3 "criteria above" applies to the conditions just in 1.4.3, or in 1.4.1-1.4.3 inclusive.
If only 1.4.3, teams where all are members of the same club but one is not a UK citizen can be entered in any class but must be declared as non-comp.
If 1.4.1 - 1.4.3. inclusive non-UK citizens can only be entered in ad-hoc classes.
I dilike the conditions altogether, but if forced to I would choose the former interpretation, as otherwise the "This must be declared at the time of entry to the competition." at the end of 1.4.2 is superfluous as 1.4.3. would mean non-comp teams cannot enter at all so no need to declare they are non-comp.
... but it is anyone's guess as to what BOF intended and how the organisers will choose to apply it.

[SJC]

If only 1.4.3, teams where all are members of the same club but one is not a UK citizen can be entered in any class but must be declared as non-comp.

Not non-comp, just ineligible for the British Championships.
Nothing to stop them picking up UK Relay League points.

[ianandmonika]

Non competitive = non competitive. No incentive here so why bother - better to go walking instead and enjoy the day.

[aiming off]

It could be so much worse. This gives a sneak preview of what happens when a Governing Body really seeks to exercise control over its Sport. Taken from the Rules of UK Athletics:

"No Club or member of a Club under the jurisdiction of UKA may
compete outside the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland, and no foreign Club or a member of a foreign Club may compete
or be invited to compete within the United Kingdom without the
permission of UKA".

"Any application to compete outside the United Kingdom or for
permission to invite any foreign Club or member of a foreign Club to
compete within the United Kingdom must be made to UKA"

"No British athlete resident in the United Kingdom may compete under
UKA Rules as a member of a foreign Club."

"Athletes desiring to compete outside the United Kingdom and any
foreign athletes desiring to compete within the United Kingdom must
present to the body promoting the meeting at which they desire to
compete, a letter signed by the proper official of their Governing Body
stating that they satisfy the definition of an athlete eligible under IAAF
Rule 20, and are permitted to compete."

"The following are ineligible to take part in competition under UKA Rules:
Any persons who take part in any athletics meeting which is not sanctioned by UKA or
other appropriate Association."

"Foreign Athletes. Junior and Senior Men and Women who would not be
eligible to compete for Great Britain and Northern Ireland under IAAF Rules,
whether permanently or temporarily resident in the country, are only permitted to
represent a Club in Open Team Competition as a first claim member if they have
been registered with UKA by 1st January in the year of competition. Such
registration may be made at the appropriate time for subsequent registration. The
applicant must give as much information as is required and the registration is
subject to an annual charge as determined from time to time by the Board of UK
Athletics. This Rule does not exclude foreign athletes making application to the
appropriate National Eligibility Committee for relaxation or exemption from the
above."

Try replacing "athletics" by "orienteering","UKA" by "British Orienteering" and "IAAF" by "IOF". If you don't like the result, it is important to resist changes which begin to undermine the traditional ethos of our sport.

[FATBB]

Is not the easiest solution what Sweden has? i.e you can compete in the national champs so long as you don't compete in another national champs in the same year.. Easy to administer and gives the competitor the choice.

[Roger]

It could be so much worse. ...

In one year's English National XC Champs I was interested to note from the programme that the not-particularly-large entry from my club encompassed roughly half of all the declared 'foreigners' in the race. Having rules doesn't mean that they're actually followed.

Perhaps all those of us who are members of running clubs and are intending to compete in any overseas orienteering races this year should write to UKA requesting permission to do so: I do like the idea of demonstrating that some things are unworkable as they're stated.

[Red Adder]

in reply to aiming off - it was guff like this I believe that caused founding father Chris Brasher to do all he could to keep O out of the clutches of AAA.

[gg]

2 (perhaps) relevant pieces of information

I wanted to race (athletics / road) outside UK (in Sweden), and sent UKA /England Athletics an email to ask about is, and they replied to my email within an hour saying that it was fine, the email was sufficient.

My girlfriend (Hungarian, no British eligiblity at all) wants to run in some fell races in UK this year, so I emailed the FRA, and they said that all she needs to do is join the FRA, and then she is eligible to run English/British champs or whatever she wants, and presumably be champion also (not that she will run enough races).

I agree that we are an amateur sport, and we should trust people to declare themselves ineligible - British Orienteering membership and residence / eligibility for citizenship works for me.
The current Swedish rules are that you can only run one national relay, but they are no longer worried about any other discipline, so I could run (and win) British long champs in spring and then run Swedish long champs in Autumn.

[gg]

Update -
Sweden are debating doing something similar!
http://www.orientering.se/Nyheter/Debat ... oiSverige/

Proposal is-
3.4.6 Rätt att tävla om svenskt mästerskap har den som

- representerar en SOFT-förening (primärt krav) samt
- är svensk medborgare, eller
- är utländsk medborgare som vid tävlingstillfället och minst sedan kalenderårets början är folkbokförd i Sverige och stadigvarande är boende på folkbokföringsadressen.


ie. be member of Swedish orienteering and either swedish citizen or foreigners registered as living in Sweden on january 1st! (similar to what Norway had when I was in a Norwegian club a few years ago).

So not just BOF which is confused at the moment

[Ravinous]

To add to gg's post. The removal of 'Only one National Champs in one year rule' happened maybe 5ish years ago (including in NOR & DEN & FIN I think), but didnt apply to relays in Sweden (not sure of the others). The problem with this was that most people thought the rule change did include relays. So for the last few years, people have been running in more than one National Relay oblivious. Only 2011 someone complained and we had the noddy situation of multiple DQs weeks after the event.
Even when the rule was in force prior to this, it wasnt adhered too. Even Jamie Stevenson WC ran both Swedish and British Sprint champs in 2004. They did the right thing to scrap it.
The Swedish Athletics rules are 2 years from when you are registered (folkbokförd) in Sweden. Then you can be eligible to win District and National Championships individual and team medals. Until then you are only allowed to guest run so you are not excluded from the race. When you are registered in Sweden, you get a personal number and preumably it is easyish to check these things if Swedish Athletics do.
It would be interesting if SOFT copy athletics.
I often think Swedish Athletics is a bit like British O and Swedish O a bit like British Athletics in terms of status/size of the sport. You local jogging club, "X joggers" in the UK doing training runs twice a week just doesnt exist in Sweden. There are clubs but they are elite clubs with few catering for Average Jo, if any. Although there are slight signs of change. Swedish Athletics is weak and I can understand their feelings to protect somewhat their National & District Comps. I think we have similar protectionist feelings with O in the UK, but some non UK passport holders are not transient visitors to the country and should be included.
Swedish O however are arrogant. Almost a case of 'bring on the foreignors - they won't beat us in our terrain!' And if they do, they must be really good orienteers and they would want them in the race as it increases the status of the event anyway. Plus I am sure they would say in the press that the Swedish runners 'had a bad day'.
I leave you with a story from Swedish Middle Distance Champs maybe 6? years ago now. Both 21E winners were non-Swede. Damien Renard FRA and Simone Niggli SUI. Nevertheless, they still hoisted the Swedish flag and played the Swedish National Anthem - to which Damien and Simone didnt know the words! It might seem strange but perhaps isnt when you think of the event being a Champs in O in Swedish Forest/terrain.