YBT final 2011

[Neil M40]

if only we had something like a ranking list for juniors.

[pete.owens]

Well all the junior results at level A-C events will still be in the database - even if they are not used to calculate rankings. It should be possible to extract a list of those who have achieved any specified threshold.

[Wayward-O]

Asking a competent junior orienteer to run down one or two classes is demeaning of the junior and may put them off the sport, or at least the YBT.

[SJC]

Asking a competent junior orienteer to run down one or two classes is demeaning of the junior and may put them off the sport, or at least the YBT.

Not if they win the class and contribute to their team's victory.

[IanD]

Asking a competent junior orienteer to run down one or two classes is demeaning of the junior and may put them off the sport, or at least the YBT.

I have some limited experience of this, not from the YBT but from the CompassSport Cup. When I was Mole Valley captain many years ago, I did ask one of our promising juniors to run Orange instead of his normal Green, and in later years Light Green instead of his normal Blue/Brown. Admittedly we did pay for him to have a non-comp run on his normal course afterwards.

Nobody ever suggested this was against the spirit of the rules, and I don't think the boy concerned felt demeaned. Certainly he is still orienteering.

[Top cat]

RJ – just as you took particular exception to AWKs comments, I take exception to your comments about the winner of the mens orange course at YBT.

You know nothing about the LOC/UVHS runners apart from seeing their names on the results of the Cumbrian galoppen. By stating that this boy is a ‘competent blue course runner’ you are implying that LOC will do anything to win (or in other words – cheat the spirit of YBT).

The facts are – he is a first year M16, he started the year doing well on LG, just before Easter he ran some blue courses as he was entered for JK & BOC, on those 3 courses he was 35/38, 35/37 & 99/101. Hardly a competent blue competitor! He continued to struggle at JK & BOC and became very disheartened. He has only been to 2 events since BOC.

His success at YBT has given him a tremendous boost. His win and contribution to the winning team will bring him back into O. This can only be good. Please don’t pass comment on juniors you clearly know nothing about.

Juniors running down 2 courses doesn’t always work anyway. At that age they often try to go too fast as it is ‘so easy’ and make silly mistakes or mis-punch. I can only comment on LOC’s selection as I know their runners. Their team selection makes sense when looking at the rules and knowing the ability of the juniors concerned. I would not pass judgement on other clubs selection as I don’t know their juniors.

You stated that nearly 100 competitors were under M/W14 (therefore M/W 12 & 10). I could only find 60. We could have taken 27 M/W12 to YBT, but as AWK says, we feel it is too long a day for children who (in our case) are new to the sport and inexperienced. They can complete yellow courses, but like you, we have long journeys (this year 41/2 hours each way) and only took the M12s who had orienteered for a while. God help us next year when (if we qualify) we will have to travel to Sarum.

My heart sank when it was suggested that the colour standard for every runner has to be calculated. With over 60 juniors who take part regularly that is going to be almost impossible to do, taking into account the coaching & organisation needed to get these runners to events in the first place. It doesn’t help that the Cumbrian galoppen does NOT publish colour standards. It may be that the rules of YBT need to be looked at, but please don’t state that ‘it’s not fair’ when a club has followed the current rules.

It will not be easy to up-date the rules so everyone thinks they are right. However, I would be more than happy to contribute to the discussion etc.

As an aside - who decided that a first year M16 has to take the leap from LG to Blue? The top runners will manage this, but the other 90% find it very difficult. This ludicrous ‘rule’ must be putting a lot off. No wonder numbers fall in the M16/18/20 age group. Why should a M14a runner at JK & BOC have to consider running M16b the next year because the move up is too great for the vast majority?
Also – why are there no LG courses available in JK & BOC relays?

[Adrian]

After reading the discussion, I agree that the rules need to be changed slightly. In future I don't think anyone above MW12 should be running a Yellow course and no-one above MW16 should be doing Orange.

[SJC]

As an aside - who decided that a first year M16 has to take the leap from LG to Blue? The top runners will manage this.

I thought that age classes allocated to courses are only relevant at Championship events, which are aimed at the top runners who, as you say, can manage them.

[ifititches]

well folks, since the Junior events Committee "is no more", as a result of the recent governance changes, you will have to identify the new route and muster your arguments effectively to apply for changes to be made if that's what you want .

The rules as they stand have been thoroughly discussed and fine-tuned over the years and my views are that they're just fine as they are,that 99.9% enjoy the competition, and that junior enjoyment, not adults making public judgements post-event is what it ought to be about.

I started this thread hoping that whatever junior life was left on here might take it on and run with it, but sadly it seems to have turned into a re-run of every thread on this competition that has ever been started. I'm dismayed that, in between the positive and encouraging comments, a junior has, yet again, been almost "singled out" to the point of identification. If you want to know more about the distress that can cause, I'm happy to discuss "off-line". To my mind the team was entered in the spirit of the rules, so I'd like to add my congratulations to LOC, the competitor concerned and to all those who made the journey and competed. WELL DONE!

Re the use of colour-coded results I whole-heartedly join in the shudder at even having to think of that for a half-decent sized team.In the days before the gold lists were extracted onto the British Orienteering website I have had to ask club website managers to re-instate deleted results off websites so that I could check results over the requisite time period before declaring a team. This caused no end of stress and extra time for them too.Just searching to see how easy it would be to find CC results now, I've come up against results no longer available and also found that some rather ropey websites have started to ostensibly link themselves to searches for orienteering results , which is pretty creepy. It would require development and running of a similar programme to that which captured the gold results before any such change was made.

[Top cat]

Adrian – I see where you are coming from, but do you think it is good for M/W12s to travel such long distances (for some clubs) when they are relatively new to the sport?

Yes SJC, but how do juniors prepare for this?
My point is that M14s run LG as a M14a and cope very well. They then become M16 and within 4 months are expected to cope with Blue on M16a. Why not Green? That is the logical step (M12 – orange, M14 – LG, M16 – G, M 18 – Blue, M 20 – Brown).
Are you saying that the M16a is only for the top runners? So you have a field of about 20 on M16a & over 50 on M16b.
One of the great things about orienteering is that everyone can take part in BOC & JK and the more that can do their A class the better. The best M16 would still win on a Green course.

[pete.owens]

After reading the discussion, I agree that the rules need to be changed slightly. In future I don't think anyone above MW12 should be running a Yellow course and no-one above MW16 should be doing Orange.

I think that would be a bad move.
Orange is an appropriate level even for an adult to start at and the competition should be as inclusive as possible so that ANY junior can compete on a course appropriate for their abilities. Even a complete novice M18 who has only run a couple of CATI events should be able run for their club.

[awk]

I take particular exception to your comments about my not being capable of 'knowing' the spirit of the rules.... very patronising of you, and quite wrong. I was trying to be as polite and careful in my comments so as to make the relevant points without being blunt.

[

I do agree that it would have been patronising if I'd said that, but I didn't. I said that you had demonstrated that you didn't know them, which is an important difference. From what you've said so far, I don't think I was wrong.

If you think it is fair then you have no business making up rules for junior competitions.... however, I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you hadn't been aware of the situation.

Very decent of you, I'm sure!!

Looking at the other comments on this thread, my own belief is that whilst the filtering system probably needs changing (but the colour standard system isn't the way to go), the main principles and aims of the rules remain pretty robust, including the efforts to ensure that older inexperienced juniors are able to run and compete (which is at a lower colour level than a lot of people appear to appreciate).

[pete.owens]

My point is that M14s run LG as a M14a and cope very well. They then become M16 and within 4 months are expected to cope with Blue on M16a.

Actually it is more like short brown - championship courses are longer.
That is nothing compared to the shock they are in for in another couple of years when they are faced with the M18E course with an EWT in the order of 70 minutes - ie a black course.

Why not Green? That is the logical step (M12 – orange, M14 – LG, M16 – G, M 18 – Blue, M 20 – Brown).

Not really - the junior progression is in terms of technical difficulty rather than length.
The M14A course although TD4 is actually a bit longer than a short blue course.
Even W14A is longer than LG

Are you saying that the M16a is only for the top runners? So you have a field of about 20 on M16a & over 50 on M16b.

Well at this years BOC there were 47 on M16A and only 9 on the B course. But yes - the British Championship courses certainly should be geared towards the top runners.
An M16 who doesn't want to run that far can always enter M18S.

[Top cat]

I appreciate that BOC is geared to the top runners. It’s a shame that there is such a big gap between first & last. The times this year ranged from 55 – 142 mins. The other problem is that by trying to get the cheaper, early entries for JK & BOC in Nov/Jan it is very difficult to know how first year runners are doing on their new courses.

At least at M18 there are 3 classes – E, L & S. And yes, a M16 can always run M18s. It is just a pity that it would be against older runners as they have very little opportunity to run age class elsewhere. One of the problems might be that I think NWJS want M16s to run blue and they are all keen to try & get into the squad (I could be wrong).

[Adrian]

1. My comments - and I think this is true of other people's comments too - imply no criticism whatsoever of any junior involved in the YBT. I congratulate everyone who took part.

2. I've suggested that in future Yellow only be open to MW10/12. One reason for this is that otherwise MW10/12s who are willing and able to take part can be squeezed out by older competitors. The comment has been made that MW10/12s don't want to travel long distances, in which case the competition needs to be changed to make it easier for them to take part. One way is to have the final in the summer, when they will be happier to travel, and I believe that change has already been made. Another is to always have the final in an accessible location. Another is to ensure there's some EVO (to use Mrs H's term) to give an additional incentive to travel. Another is to provide overnight accommodation at a scout camp or similar. Another is to find some internal or external funding support to cover some or all of the travel costs.

My daughter is 7 and she was happy to make the 2.5 hour trip to Grimsby - she cried when she found out we wouldn't be going. But it's just as true for the older ones as it is for children like her that it doesn't always seem to make a lot of sense to travel so far for a 20-minute run, so some thought needs to go into what else can be laid on, even if it's just a party afterwards.

3. Several comments have been made about the need to encourage beginners to take part, but aren't we talking about the NATIONAL FINAL of this competition? Older beginners do have a role, even at the final, but it does sound amateurish to place emphasis on their participation.