YBT final 2011

[awk]

Certain clubs have found a way of 'working ' the system...... perfectly within the letter of the rules.... but very much NOT in the spirit of the rules (IMHO).

Sorry, RJ, you have no idea what the spirit of the rules are as you were not involved in writing them. As the person who wrote them originally (and from which they've only partly deviated), I do. And I wrote the rules for clubs to take at face value, not to try and find some hidden meaning in them. If a club played by the rules, then it was fine by me.

In fact, one of the prime drivers behind the competition was to encourage and emphasise the 14-20 age groups, and bring the less experienced of those into club competition. The 10s and to a lesser extent the 12s were not a priority partly because parents at the time were telling me how reluctant they were for them to travel distances to finals etc but still for a number of reasons we needed to give them an outlet. Now if those now responsible for the rules want to change that and put more emphasis on the youngest competitors for a national competition that involves a pretty serious amount of travel, then that's fine by me, but to say that team managers should abide by some mythical spirit of the rules rather than the letter when you're not even sure what that spirit is, is to my mind somewhat misguided.

[RJ]

......the rules.... change them.....

Exactly. And as

......the filter could be set at a different level. I don't know what it's like now, but when I originally set gold standard as the filter, it was chosen because it was an easy one to monitor and identify.....

Simply solved by making elligibility based on colour standard rather than the now very much defunct 'gold standard'.

........the older, and obviously competent, juniors are allowed to run one colour below their usual course .......

awk, you set up a system where the juniors compete on colour coded courses rather than in age classes. We just need to use the colours as a guide to elligibility.

.....In fact, one of the prime drivers behind the competition was to encourage and emphasise the 14-20 age groups, and bring the less experienced of those into club competition. The 10s and to a lesser extent the 12s were not a priority partly because parents at the time were telling me how reluctant they were for them to travel distances to finals etc but still for a number of reasons we needed to give them an outlet.......

Definitely needs a rethink. Disadvantaging the 10s and 12s will not encourage them to become 14s and 16s. The event model can quite simply be amended to cater for ALL the juniors. And as almost 100 of the competitors were under M/W14 then a rethink is definitely needed.

[Red Adder]

Surely the simplest way to make fairness more transparent is make eligibility rules based on CC - badges don't exist and if the event is aimed at attracting relative novices then using the other available standard - championship - is surely a nonsense.

Simply say you can't compete on a course at a lower standard than the CC flash you have attained - or the highest CC available at the event (I know of M14s who have Blue standard). So, for example, a child who has got their lLght Green flash can'r compete on Yellow or Orange.

I would hope noteam manager would stop one of their charges doing their 3rd Light Green just so they can still "pot-hunt" on the Orange - if they do they are doing the child, the sport and themselves a great disservice.

[awk]

All of that is certainly possible RJ, if it's wanted. However, that is all a distraction from the point I was making that you were accusing clubs of only abiding by the letter and not by some sort of spirit of the rules, when you very obviously didn't actually know in what spirit the rules were put together. Now if the 'spirit' needs changing that's fine, but that's a completely different issue.

Having said that:

Colour standards might be viable now. They weren't when we looked at them originally, not least because they were more difficult to monitor and just as unreliable at 'capturing' the standards of the children concerned. Worse, in fact, as in some instances children were achieving flashes in colours in which they actually weren't very competent.

Allowing older runners to only run down one colour isn't enough: even at BSOC there are plenty of M/W14s who run at Yellow, and M16s at Orange, 2 standards down.

And if there were almost 100 10s and 12s running the YBT final, then they're obviously not being put off. And if there are so many compared to the older classes, than that indicates that the latter could still need prioritising, which means that the 'spirit' maybe doesn't need as much of a rethink as you suggest. The YBT was designed to help support development of weaker areas of junior competition, not merely reinforce the areas that are already reasonably strong.

[RJ]

.... that you were accusing clubs of only abiding by the letter and not by some sort of spirit of the rules, when you very obviously didn't actually know in what spirit the rules were put together.....

I take particular exception to your comments about my not being capable of 'knowing' the spirit of the rules.... very patronising of you, and quite wrong. I was trying to be as polite and careful in my comments so as to make the relevant points without being blunt.

Now listen very carefully.... I do not think that a rule which effectively allows a competent blue standard orienteer who has been racing all year at that level to turn up at the YBT final and run orange and compete against others who run at orange standard or having recently moved to light green IS FAIR. If you think it is fair then you have no business making up rules for junior competitions.... however, I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you hadn't been aware of the situation.

AND, then similarily a competent light green standard orienteer who is put on the yellow YBT course. It is not fair!

When we are considering the YBT we have participation of club orienteers, in the main they are juniors who have done quite a bit of the sport. Being allowed to run DOWN one colour is appropriate. IMHO that will give a fair competition.

BSOC is a totally different animal. Many participants have only done a little orienteering and it is entirely appropriate to set the standard at two colours below what you might otherwise expect from that age class.

And if there were almost 100 10s and 12s running the YBT final, then they're obviously not being put off. And if there are so many compared to the older classes, than that indicates that the latter could still need prioritising, which means that the 'spirit' maybe doesn't need as much of a rethink as you suggest. The YBT was designed to help support development of weaker areas of junior competition, not merely reinforce the areas that are already reasonably strong.

IMO that is a load of drivel. The YBT needs to encourage ALL juniors by giving them a fair competition. If we keep the 100 M/W10/12s then the future is brighter, but it will not be helped by an unfair advantage extended to older juniors in the vain expectation they will stay in the sport because they have been allowed to compete with a distinct advantage.... crap! These juniors are bright enough to see what is going on!!

I just think you are so far off the mark on this one. I respect a lot of the things that you stand for and defend, but on this you are wrong, and I for one am not prepared to accept it.... IMHO!

[ODdity]

I find myself strongly agreeing with the sentiments expressed by awk. This competition is unique in allowing both late comers to the sport and occasional orienteers to make a significant contribution and I'd hate to see that element diminished.

I have not scrutinised this years results to see if any juniors were run on inappropriate courses and I don't intend going there. I am satisfied that my team selection was within both the rules and the spirit of the competition and I'm sure that will also be true for the vast majority of team selections (if not all).

I cannot see a rule set that will meet the aspirations of everyone and what we have is pretty good. The concerns expressed by several that older inexperienced juniors have too much of an advantage over younger technical skilled juniors can be largely mitigated by stipulating the use of technically good areas where courses can be planned to the correct technical standard. A skilled M/W12 can beat a headless chicken M/W18 over a technically challenging orange course but if that course is more of a path run then the older junior will win.

The recent rule change that requires over-age juniors who have finished within 125% of the winning time one year to move up a colour the next year has also contributed to providing a more balanced competition.

Long live the YBT.

[14stoneflyer]

Hello again all

Interesting discussion this.

As someone relatively new to the sport who attended this excellent event (thank you to Charlie Adams and the 30 odd HALO volunteers!) I notice two things.

1. There is a strong club loyalty in Orienteering. This is generally a nice thing to see. However, in this instance I believe it is clouding people's judgement. Specifically the question of whether the YBT rules are fair between clubs is completely irrelevant. All that matters is whether the rules are seen as fair by the competitors involved and encouraging behaviours that "we" want.

2. The current rules are not viewed as fair by at least some of the competitors involved and, unless you want M/W16s perfectly capable of running green dashing round an Orange, M/W14s perfectly capable of running light green running on yellow, and M10s going home wondering what was the point of attending, it is not encouraging behaviours that we want.

For my son, a reasonable standard orienteer, it is a no win situation. Either he travels hundreds of miles to run a course that is both too short and too easy for him, or he gets trounced by older, better orienteers. I suspect this experience is a common one.

I suggest some middle ground is found for future years that concentrates on the experience of individual competitors and provides incentive to both newcomers and more experienced orienteers. This is possible, but probably requires an "A" and "B" approach with the winner of the age-appropriate course achieving a slightly higher score than the best score for running down.

The Flyer.

[pete.owens]

Actually that last rule (result from YBT final) is a tad unfair as it is very very much more stringent than the general threshold and only applies to those who have been to the previous YBT final.

Imagine a 1st year M16 with a December birthday. His orienteering mostly consists of running for his school at local league events. He has a reasonable turn of speed but struggles with technical areas so is only just ready to step up from LG. A year ago (as 2nd year M14) he felt reasonably confident and his club had orange covered so he ran the LG and managed at top 10 position. So this year he has to run green.

Now compare with a 2nd year M18 with a January birthday (nearly 4 years older). He is a serious competitor and trains with his regional squad. At major championships he runs M18E and was 20th at JK and 10th at BOC - just outside gold standard. His club failed to qualify for the YBT final last year as the heat clashed with the FCC final and they couldn't get a full team together. He could compete on the orange course.

[NeilC]

From a rule writer's (and enforcer's) perspective there is no easy solution to the minority of competitors who run a course that they really shouldn't (within the spirit of the rules).

Colour coded standards are a long way from an absolute standard (much more so than Gold standards). There are also no central records kept making it very difficult to enforce any rule dependent on Colour standards. What will happen is that team managers will end up scouring past results in an attempt to show that a particular runner should not have run that course. That used to happen even with the gold badge standards. What the rules could indicate is that in the spirit of the YBT competitors should not run down if they have acheived a colour standard for their appropriate course - even if they have not satisfied the gold or YBT criteria. That would better define the spirit of the competition but would not be a rule.

However if others still feel that a hard rule is required then can I suggest that you post the wording of such a rule on here for us to comment on. As mentioned above a rule has to be both fair and enforceable.

[Clive Coles]

I you read this thread you could start to believe there is a goundswell of "unfairness" building regarding the YBT rules.

I wonder what the kids themselves feal ?

My assessment is this it not the case

I say ~ leave well alone. "Fairness" is an illusion.

My club sent the smallest team ~ to win the trophy every runner would have had to have a fantastic run.

Inspite of perceived unfairness they seem to have had a great time ~ they will be striving to qualify again next year.

[LostAgain]

My observation over the last few years is that the Club (s) who seem to have put the most in to Junior Development have reaped the rewards. Namely OD and now LOC and I suspect Devon are developing well.

Clubs like SYO do well with a minimal squad based on a few key families with regular orieteering juniors.

However, I think that the "Gold Standard" rule is now out of date in light of the change in event structure and the almost total suspension of the badge scheme. The Gold Standard now looks to be almost equivalent to the old Championship standard.

I would advocate a review of this and in line with what has been proposed in this thread change Gold Standard to Colour Badge achieved or their age class which ever is lower.

[NeilC]

I would advocate a review of this and in line with what has been proposed in this thread change Gold Standard to Colour Badge achieved or their age class which ever is lower.

Does the Colour Badge Scheme still officially exist? Wasn't it going to be replaced by the Racing and Navigation Challenge scheme this year? Where are the rules for the Colour Badge Scheme? Are they applied uniformly across the country (some clubs award "colours" at their local Level D league events for example)?

[LostAgain]

Does the Colour Badge Scheme still officially exist? Wasn't it going to be replaced by the Racing and Navigation Challenge scheme this year? Where are the rules for the Colour Badge Scheme? Are they applied uniformly across the country (some clubs award "colours" at their local Level D league events for example)?

It seems to be alive and kicking in YHOA. Not sure it matters where you achieve your standard and whether it is uniformly applied. It is only a guide afterall and the YBT age classes are already set at a sensible level, below that which most regular orienteering juniors (14, 16 & 18's) compete.

I certainly support the spirit of the event being inclusive, the issue is making it fair to the older inexperienced juniors weighed against the experienced youngsters and therefore only comes in to being on the Yellow & Orange courses. A limit of only running 1 course lower than your recommended YBT age would seem a fair compromise.

[SJC]

Imagine a 1st year M16 with a December birthday. His orienteering mostly consists of running for his school at local league events. He has a reasonable turn of speed but struggles with technical areas so is only just ready to step up from LG. A year ago (as 2nd year M14) he felt reasonably confident and his club had orange covered so he ran the LG and managed at top 10 position. So this year he has to run green.

Given that the top two M14s in this year's British Championships could only manage 2nd and 4th on Light Green in this year's YBT final, any M16 who has managed to finish within 125% of the winner's time on that course is certainly not struggling, so should move up to Green next year.

Now compare with a 2nd year M18 with a January birthday (nearly 4 years older). He is a serious competitor and trains with his regional squad. At major championships he runs M18E and was 20th at JK and 10th at BOC - just outside gold standard. His club failed to qualify for the YBT final last year as the heat clashed with the FCC final and they couldn't get a full team together. He could compete on the orange course.

If the competitor has got to that level without ever having achieving gold standard as an M14 or M16 it would be very surprising. Either of these achievements would rule him ineligible for the Orange course.

The general principle of the YBT is fine in that it does allow novices to compete on a course that is appropriate for their skill level. However it is difficult to see how anyone capable of winning their class at the British Schools Championships can possibly be described as a novice. With the removal of the badge events the gold standard now takes out comparatively few experienced competitors. Far fewer than it used to. So another way of identifying the non-novices needs to be found. Another task for the new Events Committee.!

[RJ]

..... a hard rule is required then can I suggest that you post the wording of such a rule on here for us to comment on.....

(1) A team manager from each competing club, who shall be a BOF member, SHALL be responsible for the selection of the juniors competing on the various courses at the competition.
(2) Any junior may compete on any course so long as they are only running DOWN one colour standard from what they normally, or are currently competing at other events in. Eg. May enter Orange if they normally or in the recent past have competed on Light Green (say, a minimum of three times.)
(3) The entries SHALL show the age class and current standard for each entrant and the course they are being entered for.

The internet is awash with the results of events and even if you can't find events on a club website then a Google search will give you an amazing amount of information!! This will be the policing of the 'rules'.

A team manager is quite capable of making the fair decisions on who runs what course avoiding the issue of a very competent blue standard runner being entered for the orange course and then winning!!!

This allows juniors of whatever age to enter the YBT course structure at the ability level suitable for them. Perhaps you might get a complete novice M18 running yellow; and that would be a distinct advantage for the sport, particularly if they continue!