YBT final 2011

[LostAgain]

Thanks Martin
It looks to make the difference between breakeven and a loss. HALO were over generous with keeping the junior entry fees at £2.50, same as the qualifier overlooking the issue of lower adult runs and their contribution towards covering the cost.

Hopefully the weather will remain sunny.

For what it's worth, my prediction is a clear win for LOC, with Devon pushing OD for 2nd place and a solid performance for SYO.

Devon ar unknown for me as we see them so rarely this far North!!

[ifititches]

So sad HOC are not sending a team tomorrow King Penguin and I felt very inspired after the qualifiers, which is when I started this thread, but knew it would be touch and go to get a team to travel with the numbers we have in the club at present, and their youth. In the event, I can understand fully why 7 hours of travel was felt to be too much for some of the younger ones, particularly with the memories of the December weather from last year. It was great to see the lengths that some families would have gone to to get the juniors there though.
The plus point is that the efforts to build a team gave new impetus to junior development within the club, which will be carried on, so partially fulfilling the idea of this competition even if we're only there in spirit tomorrow.
As KP says, the 3rd placed club in WM was contacted to let them know that our team was not going to travel, but the short time between qualifier and final meant "taking it to the line" on the team decisions.
If the weather tomorrow is as lovely as it was here today it should be a great day for all. Good luck to you all. Looking forward to the move to the summer in 2013

[Blonde bombshell]

Does anyone know if there will be live results today?

[Homer]

No live results (except at the event).

Congratulations to LOC!

Someone had to beat OD sooner or later...

[LostAgain]

From what I remember in assembly.

LOC Won
OD 2nd
HH 3rd

SYO 6th

Full results will be available on HALO website soon

[Homer]

Results up:

http://halo-orienteering.org.uk/doc/YBT_Results.pdf

[LostAgain]

From what I remember in assembly.

LOC Won
OD 2nd
HH 3rd

Sorry, missed off CONGRATULATIONS to the winners and runners up.
Strength in depth clearly pays, LOC with 4 Yellow counters and 3 Orange counters will be a force for the future.

Is this "move over OD"?

[ODdity]

Congratulations to LOC, their junior policy is certainly showing dividends and bodes well for their future. 7 counters out of their total of 9 on Yellow & Orange is why they won. The other clubs all took points off each other on Light Green & Green.

To me the YBT is a fantastic vehicle to bring youngters into our sport and make them feel a part of it. Any club that succeeds in so doing gets my applause.

[RJ]

Congratulations to LOC, their junior policy is certainly showing dividends and bodes well for their future.

Thanks to HALO for the YBT final. Great. Weather wasn't brilliant. Hopefully future years will be warmer with the movement to an earlier month!

Congratulations to LOC, they have a really good junior policy which has produced many great orienteers over the years, thanks in the main to Ulverston Victoria High School.

However, the Yvette Baker competition rules do not allow for a fair competition and many other clubs are unable to compete on equal terms. For example, two of the LOC yellow counters were M14s, and two of the orange counters were M16s. (Wonder how they fared at the British Schools Champs? Which courses did they win/do well?) Now, for clubs where 'appropriately' aged juniors are running these yellow and orange courses they stand little chance of having success. So an M12 running orange against an M16 or even an M18 have 'no chance' of winning!

I have argued against this for several years now.... and it still persists. The rules are not fair! LOC have not broken any rules and have won on the day. But surely it is patently obvious that an M12 can not compete fairly against an M18! The answer must be to break up the yellow course even further, not just into yellow boys and yellow girls, but a split along age lines as well. By all means have the Year13 pupil who has just come into the sport, having a go at the event..... but lets have the appropriate competition for him. By all means run an orange course, but it must be against his peers!

[Blonde bombshell]

RJ - whilest you praise the winning teams it seems a bit unfair to follow that with a moan about the rules. You almost suggest that the top teams did not 'play fairly'.

It is up to the club to field a team that follows the rules, but has the best chance of winning. LOC, OD & HH appear to have done this.

With regard to the rules - I don't think it's possible to create a set of rules that everyone would agree were 'fair' without running courses to fit every possibility.

The YBT rules are set so that beginners/novices of all ages can run. They are also set so that the 'best' of each age group cannot run down. I quote them below:~
• Yellow:
• any M/W10
• any M/W12 or M/W14 who has not at any time achieved a gold badge
time in the M/W12 or M/W14 (or higher) age class at any one of the
British Long Distance Championships, JK Day 2 (Saturday), JK Day 3
(Sunday), Northern Championships, Midland Championships,
Southern Championships, or finished within 125% of the winner of the
respective M or W class on the Yellow
Orange:• any M/W12-
• any M/W14+ who has not at any time achieved a gold badge time in
the M/W14 (or higher) age class at any one of the British Long
Distance Championships, JK Day 2 (Saturday), JK Day 3 (Sunday),
Northern Championships, Midland Championships, Southern
Championships, or finished within 125% of the winner of the respective
M or W class on the Orange (or higher) course at any previous Yvette
Baker Trophy Final etc.etc......

In answer to your question about how the LOC runners did at BSOC - you just have to look at the results. On the YBT yellow boys course LOC had 6 runners in the top 13 -
1 M 14 year 9 BSOC 1
2 M 14 year 9 BSOC 5
4 M 12 year 7 BSOC 10 (started O in Sept)
5 M 14 year 8 BSOC 11
12 M 14 year 8 BSOC 42
13 M 14 year 7 BSOC 13
But is any of that relevant?

What would you prefer?
A Yellow - M/W 10/12. Orange - M/W 14, Light Green - M/W 16, Green - M/W 18
Where would older beginners/novices fit in? What about those who are M/W 14, but all their classmates are M/W 12 and they all normally run the same colour course?
B Yellow - year 7 & below. Orange - year 8 & 9, Light Green - year 10 & 11, Green - year 12 & above
Would you also make the 'best' runners (gold standard) run up? Where would older beginners/novices fit in?

[pete.owens]

I think the idea of novices being able to run down is sound as we want to make sure everyone can participate - and it would overcomplicate the competition to have more classes just to accommodate this. A top M12 would probably be able to hold their own on an orange course against a genuine novice M16.

However, there is a huge gap between "novice" and "gold standard" which includes the vast majority of experienced juniors. Many can - and regularly do - run courses appropriate for their age class at local events, but may never attend a level A event, even if they were capable of running the BOC within 125% of the champion. There are probably a few juniors who have represented the regions at JIRCs or even their nations at JHIs, yet have not reached gold standard.

I don't think this is a problem of fairness to the youngsters - all the clubs are following the same rules - but of an unsatisfactory experience for the older ones who are asked to run-down tactically for their club.

[RichT]

As the assistant team manager for Lakeland a couple of points.

Firstly the kids who don't normally feature at the top of the results list actually love to see their names at the top. Last year one class winner (a 14 on yellow) declared "its the first time I've won anything in orienteering" so it is motivational for those who don't manage to attain gold standard.

Second Lakeland suffer the same issues of retention as every other club, and although we had 46runners listed we "only" managed to take 33. Not everyone was overjoyed at the 6am start and four and a half hour coach travel each way (can't think why?).

And as for the unpredictability of competition on the day then I had another 5 kids pencilled in as "bankers" on Yellow and Light Green who didn't perform at all as expected. That's kids for you.

Lakeland are pretty unique in having a well established link with UVHS and an existing hard working coaching team being supplemented in recent years by a few other coaches beginning to work part-time and arranging these work patterns around the Wednesday afternoon after-school club. It hasn't hurt that one of these is an ex-director of coaching.

As to scheduling the competition then I have until recently been NW Fixtures rep and always tried to schedule the regional round in October to give at least a 4 week break before the final. That way the winning teams had enough of a gap to keep the kids interested whilst hopefully they hadn't arranged anything that far in advance. I sent emails out asking for them to be available for the final the day after winning the regional round on October 9th.

It will be interesting to see how the competition fares with its move to the summer in 2013.

Many thanks to the HALO organising team, and planner and controller for a great event.

[awk]

I know you've been complaining for years about the scoring system RJ, but the fact of the matter is that a good M12/14 CAN beat novice M16/M18s, and they do regularly (the year we won it, some time ago now, all the older runners running yellow - and M16/18s were allowed to run the yellow in those days - were beaten by M10s). The rules ARE fair: they are the same for all, and allow all clubs to compete. You may not like them or what they set as a priority, but that does not make them unfair.

It might be pete.owens that the filter could be set at a different level. I don't know what it's like now, but when I originally set gold standard as the filter, it was chosen because it was an easy one to monitor and identify. I notice that the filter is actually set higher than we originally had it, as it was set to include gold at any badge event - but they don't exist any more! The filter is also now very narrow, only including a very narrow range of events to which a lot of juniors simply won't get. Personally, I think the BSOC should be included at the very least.

But this idea that younger orienteers can't compete against older ones is, frankly, simply not true. They can, and do.

In the meantime, unreserved congratulations to LOC on a great win.

[RJ]

RJ - whilest you praise the winning teams it seems a bit unfair to follow that with a moan about the rules. You almost suggest that the top teams did not 'play fairly'.

Mmmmmmm! You see Blonde bombshell, I am not speaking strictly for myself in my comments, but for the issues raised by team members who have had an 'experience' at the event. Juniors are not stupid, in fact they are very astute, and very quickly recognise the incongruous unfairness of seeing a six foot M16 in the start pen just ahead of them, running the same course, when they are just eleven years old.

The rules currently allow an M16 to run orange even if they have spent all year running a blue course at colour coded events..... now if that were to happen it wouldn't be fair Blonde bombshell would it? Or if someone who ran at BSOC in Year 9 should run yellow at YBT.... no team manager would do that, surely.

.....a good M12/14 CAN beat novice M16/M18s......

Quite agree with you awk. Now, please be good enough to go through the YBT results and point out the novice juniors to me in the top end of each set of results. I'm currently struggling to find them! Obviously the definition of 'novice' needs to be spelled out. Someone who has done several 'O' courses perhaps might fit the bill.... what do you think? Perhaps it is someone who has been orienteering for three or four years but hasn't gone to any of the 'big' events.... ?

Certain clubs have found a way of 'working ' the system...... perfectly within the letter of the rules.... but very much NOT in the spirit of the rules (IMHO). Any team manager should be able to look me in the eye and say.... yes our team is playing by the spirit of the rules. And I firmly believe the bulk of the YBT teams are indeed doing just that.

So, what is the future. Team managers should not leave their selections open to any criticism and should be able to 'with hand on heart' declare that their novice on that course is infact a novice in the true sense of the word.

I do feel, however, that if that is adhered to, and the older, and obviously competent, juniors are allowed to run one colour below their usual course that they would do on any other weekend then the competition will indeed be fair and seen to be fair.

In the end it is not the juniors who choose which course they will run, but are selected by a Team Manager. I see no reason why that person for each club can't be named and asked to justify a selection if asked. We'll worry about sanctions when we have a club or clubs bending the rules out of all recognition to what was intended.

[Mrs H]

What possible point is there in having a bunch of rules and a published benchmark standard to adhere to if you now say that adhering to them is not in the spirit of the competition. That's just sanctimonious tosh.

Either you stick to the rules, change them or abolish them altogether and introduce some other competition structure - but please don't start criticising people for taking the competition seriously enough to make the best possible use of their juniors - to do otherwise would mean you were NOT a good team captain