YBT final 2011

[SeanC]

AWK - I have in the back of my mind that you helped to set the competition up many years ago? If so well done and great work, but I don't think you understand the situation in my region. Based on the ranking list I estimate that AIRE is roughly the size of DFOK, LOK, HAVOC, CHIG and GO combined. Would AIRE be able to field a complete team with 1/5th of their juniors?

Using the same logic, does the Compass Sport Trophy dilute the Compass Sport Cup. If half the clubs in the country aren't entering the competition, does this really mean that the rules are perfect and should never change?

I know our club membership and of the 10 or so families half have only been to 1 or 2 events ever and that just very local. Of the others even if we could persuade them all to drop everything else in their lives at exactly the same time we would not have a complete team with the current rules. Through hard work and luck we are growing but not fast enough to allow all these juniors an opportunity to compete in this great competition.

[awk]

AWK - I have in the back of my mind that you helped to set the competition up many years ago? If so well done and great work, but I don't think you understand the situation in my region. Based on the ranking list I estimate that AIRE is roughly the size of DFOK, LOK, HAVOC, CHIG and GO combined. Would AIRE be able to field a complete team with 1/5th of their juniors?

Yes I did get it going. I fully understand the situation, having prior to rejoining Aire been a member of Claro (OH still is) which is no bigger than any of those clubs you list. Claro managed not only to field a full team, but they beat our juniors in the qualifying round.
It's not about what size the club is now, it's about what it aspires to, and I still maintain that any club should be capable of, or be working towards, fielding what is in all honesty a small team, especially when one considers the age range it covers.

Using the same logic, does the Compass Sport Trophy dilute the Compass Sport Cup. [

Well, actually, yes, I think it does (although dilute may not have been totally the right word) - I have long advocated restructuring the CSC/T competition.
(And, having said that, the same sort of restructuring could apply to the YBT, which might go some way towards answering your concerns - that restructuring being a divisional structure based on clubs' strengths rather than pure size.)

If half the clubs in the country aren't entering the competition, does this really mean that the rules are perfect and should never change?

No, but nor am I an advocate of lowest common denominators. In my view, we put the numbers as low as credibly possible for a national competition.
The YBT started as a local match between whichever club wanted to come - after a few years it was attracting clubs from quite a long way away (including some pretty small ones!), so it was rolled out nationally. There is no reason why, if you wanted a competition for smaller clubs who didn't want to travel, that you shouldn't do something similarly local in your patch for those clubs you've just identified.

this great competition.

Delighted you think so - but one reason it's great, is because it's stayed focused.

[Nottinghamshire outlaw]

There are some ways that a club can encourage more of their juniors to be in the YBT team: pay for the hire of a coach/minibus so that the occasion becomes social as well as competitive; send out 'selection' letters to all appropriate juniors - in effect saying they have been selected to represent XOclub or X county or X town in the national junior team orienteering competition for the YBT. My club has done both of these as have other clubs.

I wonder if, with the increasing costs of hiring a coach/minibus and the high costs of fuel these days, we should be considering having a northern (Eng & Wales) final and a southern one? Would that dilute the competition? - yes probably/most likely. Would it increase the likelihood of clubs taking part? No idea.

Some people have suggested getting rid of the regional rounds and letting all clubs go staright to a final. My view is that fewer clubs would be represented because of the greater travel distances and that the newer junior club members might be even less inclined to take part.

Perhaps the Competition Review will have looked at all of this and the YBT will be changed? Now that the Junior Competition Group has been disbanded who will speak for junior competitions on the new Events and Competitions Committee?

[Gross]

Now that the Junior Competition Group has been disbanded who will speak for junior competitions on the new Events and Competitions Committee?

Has the International Committee been disbanded also .... as there have been no minutes on BOF website since 2010?

[Clive Coles]

I think this would be a mistake

Some people have suggested getting rid of the regional rounds and letting all clubs go straight to a final.

The smaller clubs would still be luke warm about entering ~ they would argue they had no chance of competing with all the larger clubs who participate. They would think "why travel all that way just to make up the numbers".

The current system of regional qualifiers supports local inter-club competitiveness. The minows can sometimes make it through the qualification stages. Once they have done it they start believing. A lot of the bigger clubs will have failed to qualify through their regional rounds. With a reduced field, that element of luck, and some good personal performancies.... you never know..

I don't think our SUFFOC juniors worried that much that we had HH, an out of region club, at our round. It seems to me to be very sensible for clubs to have the flexibility to travel to their nearest venue. The real motivation for us was focused on being the top EA club team ~ it was a close shave. No doubt WAOC and the rest will be gunning for us next year.

As it was we got to know HH better. We will be sharing a coach with them when we both travel to the final.

It going to be a fun event ~ good for the development and encouragement of all competitors.

[Clive Coles]

awk wrote:Now that the Junior Competition Group has been disbanded who will speak for junior competitions on the new Events and Competitions Committee?

I guess this depends on the nominations that are made and the outcome of the selection process. The following note is currently being circulated through the Associations.

The process has 2 stages with an initial 4 appointments being made of members nominated by Associations. Once these appointments are confirmed there will be a further 2 members appointed to the committee. The final 2 members will come from unsuccessful association nominations or nominations from elsewhere for example clubs, other committees, the Board, staff.

Therefore it is worthwhile Associations nominating more than one person if they feel they have candidates that are suitable and add to the mix of skills, knowledge and experience.

Nominations for the first round of appointments are required by 8 January 2012 and should be sent to mhamilton@britishorienteering.org.uk .

So if anyone wants the job of being the advocate for Junior competitions they had better produce a strong "O" CV and get themselves nominated.

[Mrs H]

awk wrote:Now that the Junior Competition Group has been disbanded who will speak for junior competitions on the new Events and Competitions Committee?

I guess this depends on the nominations that are made and the outcome of the selection process.........So if anyone wants the job of being the advocate for Junior competitions they had better produce a strong "O" CV and get themselves nominated.

But should it really be a matter left to chance?

[Nottinghamshire outlaw]

'Now that the Junior Competition Group has been disbanded who will speak for junior competitions on the new Events and Competitions Committee?'
Along with this question I flagged up one or two other ideas as to how the YBT might be changed in the future - that's why wide representation is important on BOF committees.

On the new Events committee there should be people who have the interests of juniors, elite, seniors etc. How will mappers be represented? Etc.

Don't sit back and hope - put yourself forward.

[SeanC]

I just don't get the viewpoint about a Compass Sport Trophy type competition for small* clubs. So long as the name/marketing is right everyone will know that the YBT trophy is the big/prestigeous one and the one for small clubs to aim for. Do any of the Compass Sport Cup club competitors think that sharing their playing field with the little trophy clubs makes any difference to their competition?

There is this school of thought that by excluding clubs from competitions it makes them try harder. More likely is that the YBT and junior development slips off the radar if the task seems too difficult. I'll bet many of the clubs who didn't enter this year didn't even consider it a possibility. If clubs could bring juniors to a lesser competition, it could enthuse the juniors and the club alike and make future entry into the bigger competition more likely.

Maybe with a bit more pushing/promotion externally and internally some more clubs would enter, but lets face it - any national club competition where the majority of clubs don't enter or enter incomplete teams, and 3 regional heats are uncontested (if I interpret the results on the BOF website correctly) needs some reform.

I'm sure the final will be a great day's orienteering anyway.

* ie small in junior numbers.

[awk]

it could enthuse the juniors and the club alike and make future entry into the bigger competition more likely.

There is no evidence that this works - how many small clubs have moved up in other competitions? Virtually zero. Indeed, I know of at least one situation some years ago where a club (not local) worked hard to ensure an increase in BOF membership didn't take them over the limit into big club status. So much for aspiring to move up.

As I said - if you or anybody else wants to organise a match or matches for junior club teams of 5 or so, for clubs who don't want to travel, then go ahead - that is, after all, how the YBT started. Personally, I don't regard that of sufficient size for a team competition considering the age ranges being covered.

[Mrs H]

As an aside to the main debate. I used to dread our club getting to the YBT final and having to organise another weekend away so soon before Christmas and so soon after the Schools champs - it just seemed such bad timing when it came to tempting the less committed families to support it.

[mark2]

I guess that is why it is proposed to hold final in early July in 2013 - and presumably subsequent years.

[Clive Coles]

I can see your point Mrs H ~ an opinion derived from real experience of organising teams to travel. But I would argue differently.

It seems to me, with Junior competitions in particular, you need to try to maintain focus and enthusiasm. By holding the final within a few weeks of the qualifyers you achieve just that. To a child who has just competed for a winning team the first question is " Where is the final ~ when is it to be held?" If the reply is "not until next year" the enthusiasm saps.

This happens to some extent with the Compassport ~ the final is often 8 months after the qualifying round. By the time it is held most orienteers have forgotton about who qualified.

You could move the YBT final to early in the spring term so as not to have too long a gap.
That however introduces the real risk of arranging a national fixture, where folk have to travel, during the time of the year where snow disruptions are most likely. Event cancellations and the difficulties of rescheduling them at short notice are a pain for everyone. Then we get towards Easter and the JK and before you know it you are in the school holidays. We could end up squeezing in the YBT final just before GCSE's. If we are not carefulf the gap between qualifyers and the final could widen to 6 months or more.

Afraid the current Autumn term scheduling arrangements still look to me to be the more attractive option.

[14stoneflyer]

As a relative newcomer with kids, here is my view.

YBT is vital. Orienteering is dominantly an individual sport for my kids with them either competing against their friends or the forest. YBT provides them with the team element, the belonging, that is so important to competitive sport. To a degree they also get this from participating in relay teams.

The team size is important. Nine is a good number and makes them feel part of something bigger. Too much smaller team size and this feeling will diminish.

The regional rounds are important. Winning the regional provides the families involved with the impetus to ensure attendance at the national final, even if this is many hours of driving away. No local event win would probably have meant no national event attendance for us this year given location.

So for me, the question is how do we get the local/ regional competition more competitive? Succeed at this and the national final will also flourish.

The Flyer

[awk]

14stoneflyer: I can only agree! Your thoughts on the team structure tie in very much with my own experience.
I also agree with Clive's comments about the proximity of the qualifiers to the final. But Mrs H is also right - the December date is not a good one, and was IIRC only chosen because the rest of the calendar was very full. I don't think anybody felt it was optimum. If a better solution could be suggested....!