SOL 6

[mappingmum]

EMIT and SI are both great and far preferable to pin punches.
The key with EMIT is to work out at the start which way round you're holding the brikke relative to the position of the T-bar upright. Then you can adjust your direction of approach to the control. Sometimes it works better than others.

[greywolf]

The key with EMIT is to work out at the start which way round you're holding the brikke relative to the position of the T-bar upright. Then you can adjust your direction of approach to the control. Sometimes it works better than others.

Emit is crap for control flow. It might be a bit better if those putting out control units knew how to orient them. Most, in my experience, have no idea or don't care that there is a "right" way to set them out (and to hold the card):

"The open end of the control should face the feature, pointing away from the optimal route into the control feature*. Hold the card in the palm of your hand with the yellow card side facing out and the elastic loop on the ring finger, or little finger for small kids."
http://www.emituk.com/faq/A%20Competito ... %20PDF.pdf

[AndyC]

I also always find that the control unit is the "wrong way round" (hence the more modern brikke) but I know that when I plan I often have a control where I expect approach from multiple directions (In my last event I reckon there were six possible approaches to one particular control depending on course and personal choice) and therefore I couldn't orient the control properly. I'd also point out that controls are often put out by volunteers who don't know the routes just the positions (yes I know the controller will be checking the placement but he is usually under significant time pressure)

[greywolf]

There are often multiple approaches to a control, even if only on the micro-scale of whether which way round (or over) the knoll the competitor goes - but in most of these cases you can still ensure that "The open end of the control should face the feature"

Another anomaly is e.g. on the white course where it's good planning to put the control just beyond the feature (= junction or crossroads) to lead the competitor down the right path...but again you can still get the open end facing the feature.

If the control site is top of hill and it's the central control in butterfly loops then I dunno...

[AndyC]

It was top of hill as it happens -designed as a spectator control

[andy]

emit punching in theory is fine, I used to hate it but I've grown to realise it is possible to punch well with it (not that I've learned yet). Yes it's more of a faff than SI but it's perfectly reasonable and everyone is in the same boat so man up and deal with it.
What I don't like is the seemingly arbitrary dsq/mp through brikke's failing (plus the lack of decent software solution). Going on what Big Jon said that didn't happen at the SOL but what baffles me is that people were allowed to not punch the start. Why wasn't someone checking it was being done correctly? or at least reminding people at -1 that they need to make sure the punch the start, see the flash, see the time set to 0 on the display. Missing the start box is what happens at a local event when a family group of 15 people go straight to number 1, not at a SOL.

[AndyC]

As a matter of information did the hire brikkes at SOL 6 have displays or were they the version without?

[andy]

"If all the techie expertise in the uk is centred on one technology it will make running WOC easier"

It makes it easier for the one company to push up prices and reduce service.

Given that the chances of WOC being anything other than SI it's a moot point. The investment from the S6D will pretty much dictate the technology. If professional services are being taken on the organisers will no doubt do the same as previous 6 days have done and go out to tender. You have to remember that the vast majority of SI activity in Scotland is a volunteer effort. Clubs that choose to use another system are reducing the pool of volunteers available for the larger events which increases the demand on volunteers in other clubs.

[andypat]

Can I try to be?
Because of my two centred lifestyle and the fact that one club in the NE (of England) and one in the Midlands (NN & OD) differ from the majority in using Emit (as does the MLN) I've bought both SI & EMIT
In the case of EMIT it was to ensure that I had later model with a display -this means that 1 know it has started ,( if I remember which button to press) the last control I visited, I have no need to carry a watch and because it apparently works on proximity I'm unlikely to fail to record a punch. I also usually know it is working before I go to the start because I've displayed its number at registration. (I usually know my SI is working for a similar reason as well)
I find Emit clumsier than SI to punch but negated slightly by losing the need to carry a watch (and by using the proximity by getting near enough for a flash rather than making contact properly in wkward positions). I've also experienced problems with SI units in the field (losing battery, being start boxes, being mistimed) I've never seen an issue with the simpler control boxes in the field for Emit.

Good effort Andy! You can be the referee then.....
Unfortunately your advice regarding the lack of requirement for a watch only seems to apply to people with their own modern brikke. Judgning by recent events, it seems that timing yourself when you have a hire brikke is a very important back up should your brikke turn out to be a dud.

I wonder if it isnt beyond the wit of someone to design a unit that takes both an emit or SI card and the software to go along with it......

[LesS]

Aha - that explains alot - I put the loop of my ecard on my index finger so I can hold it comfortably in the palm of my hand. When I punch, my hand and arm totally cover the red light - no bleep. I had tried it on my little finger a few times but it didn't feel comfortable and flapped about when dealing with map and compass. I've now tested on ring finger and it sticks out above my 'fist' which is a bit off-putting. Would be able to see the light though - but I think comfort will take priority even if it is pointing the wrong way for the way the box is supposed to be facing - or is it? How many of us hit the controls with such precision?

[smf]

Why wasn't someone checking it was being done correctly? or at least reminding people at -1 that they need to make sure the punch the start, see the flash, see the time set to 0 on the display. Missing the start box is what happens at a local event when a family group of 15 people go straight to number 1, not at a SOL.

There was someone checking (or at least there was when I started), there was also another person at -3 who tested the Emit cards on an electronic unit of some sort (different to a control unit). New Emit cards seem to have been used (without screens), these were also used at SOL5 two weeks earlier.

[Big Jon]

Most of the Emit kit used by Maroc and Gramp is now 12 years old (or so) - we have had a couple of failed forest units (they are regularly checked for strength of signal). The brikkes - we have been replacing broken ones over the years, some electronically broken (and a few from a batch that Emit admitted were poor - problems with battery life) but most broken screens from people slamming them into forest unit the wrong way down and cracking the LED window! Emit are now phasing out the type 3 (with windows) in favour of type 2 and are developing a completely new touch free system (already used by ski-O I think).
The investment by the 2 clubs has been fairly small over the years after the initial large capital cost. How many SI units are still working from the batch bought by 6-Days in 1999? and how much maintenance has been put into these to keep them going? (not to mention the cost of replacing units and batteries).
To my mind the main advantage of emit is the buy-and-use simplicity, no changing of batteries, no reprogramming of units, no waking the units on the morning of every race.
Some people complain about time lost trying to punch if the forest units are pointing the wrong way. It would be interesting to know how much time these same people waste in errors, bad route choices etc - if it gets to the same order of magnitude then it might be important, if not, then work harder to save time orienteering rather than whinging about a few seconds lost over the whole of a race with having to twist an arm round to punch.
Orienteers boast of being a brainy bunch - surely not too hard to teach yourself how to punch from different directions?

[Homer]

Reading this thread I can't help wondering which system is being used next weekend for the VHI's?
I guess it will probably be the aging EMIT kit which Big Jon descibes. If so, I hope there will be some form of back-up timing.
As a very occasional EMIT user, I manage OK but still prefer SI. However the issue of battery life has always caused me concern and is one reason why I've never bought my own brikke. I feel that if the battery fails in a brikke given me by the race organiser then that would be their responsibility. I would expect them to have some form of back-up timing system whereby I would still get a result. This is even more important if the race in question happened to be an International.

[andypat]

I think the issue of punching emit units in the forest is probably overstated. But its definitely an issue worthy of note when you look at Sprint/urban events (such as the Lossie NUL event earlier this year). I reckon I'd have been at least a minute faster at Lossie with SI than emit due to issues with units in various odd places and angles hanging off fences etc and also queuing behind competitors trying to hold the brikke in to see if the unit is flashing (very difficult in the sunshine). The main drawback for me in this situation is the lack of an audible feedback to say you have registered a punch. Plus that old chestnut of hire dibbers being too bashed to retain the backup card, but thats another story.

Of course a minute is neither here nor there for me in the middle of the pack on an urban race but on a sprint event with a similar number of controls could easily affect the outcome.

[Big Jon]

AndyPat - how much time did you lose at Lossiemouth from orienteering errors, compared to the minute you lost on punching?