SOL 6

[andypat]

I wasnt able to attend this event but noticed in the preliminary results at least there seem to have been a few issues with EMIT (presumably hire) brikkes. Is this down to competitor error or is it a problem with EMIT itself? I havent noticed any explanation anywhere. Given that EMIT brikkes have a back up card on them, is there a case for having a backup timer at the finish for EMIT events? Or is there a better way of checking that brikkes are working before using them?

[Electrocuted]

The brikke Donald was given failed completely. He didn't time himself so couldn't get a time, even though all the back up pin punches were there. I noticed that others were down on the provisional results under mp with a self time noted but now appear to be in the results so I guess the moral of the story is time yourself!

[andypat]

Well I suppose thats as fair a way of dealing with the situation if thats how it presented itself to the organiser/controller, so well done to them. But isnt it the responsibility of the event organiser to time competitors rather than the individuals?


Be interesting to see that as a "controllers conundrum" in Compassport at some point....

[EddieH]

I've never thought about it, but I don't possess a watch so I'm not sure how I could time myself.

It always concerned me that EMIT had the bit that's likely to fail in the hand of the competitor whereas SI has it in the forest. In the latter case you simply lose your split time but no-one is disenfranchised.

Maybe at bigger EMIT events we should move to timed starts AND have an accurately set clock on display at the finish so that anyone who is aware that their brikke has failed can get a time. If they didn't realise there si also a good chance that they might know who finished just before or after them.

[andy]

But isnt it the responsibility of the event organiser to time competitors rather than the individuals?

Absolutely, it saddens me when you see things like this on the results. If clubs are going to use a system with such obvious flaws the least they can do is have a backup timer on the finish line (strict timed start and camera pointed at finish line and clock?). There is also sufficient SI kit available in Scotland thanks to the S6D co, perhaps it should be made mandatory to make use of it at SOLs (and above).

I hope the people affected receive an apology (money back + free entry to another event perhaps?)

[Sunlit Forres]

I suggest getting the start team to remind all competitors to ensure that the start unit flashes when they put their brikke in. This confirms that the brikke's working. I've never heard of one failing mid-race but I suppose it could happen in theory.

The start team should have a few spare brikkes in case of any failures. They certainly will at Quarrelwood (Elgin) this Sunday where Jon Hollingdale's produced some brilliant courses. Inspired planning at its very best.

[Scott]

I've never heard of one failing mid-race but I suppose it could happen in theory.

It can definitely happen, even half-way through a 15min sprint race, as several people on here will be able to confirm.

[Big Jon]

Most of teh emit problems were caused by people not starting their brikke. As for using SI - you'd need to get other computer people in 'cos the NE doesn't use SI, so no experience or skill. SI cards can also fail mid-race and produce gobble-de-gook numbers in place of splits. In IOF races the SI or emit system is not allowed to control race result times - it has to be a separate free standing system - usually a timed start and electronic beam or video camera at finish. Maybe we should introduce this for our SOL's and above?

[andypat]

What is it that can cause an emit brikke to fail? Is there a wee battery in it? Once its failed is that it or can you replace the battery?
My experience of hired emit brikkes is that usually they are so bashed up that the yellow card falls out before the 1st control. I'll certainly be paying more attention to that in future!

[Scott]

What is it that can cause an emit brikke to fail? Is there a wee battery in it? Once its failed is that it or can you replace the battery?

As I understand it, it's normally the battery running out. I don't think the battery can be replaced very easily - when my card died after a couple of years of use (thankfully not mid-race) the nice folks at Emit UK gave me a free replacement card.

[Paul Frost]

Most of teh emit problems were caused by people not starting their brikke. As for using SI - you'd need to get other computer people in 'cos the NE doesn't use SI, so no experience or skill.

As an infrequent user of Emit, how do you "not start your brikke"?
I'm guessing that it's not placed in the start control properly, which could happen with SI except that people know to listen for a beep and a flash and it's a universal circular placement rather than a specific one angle only.

With regards no one in the NE having the skill or experience, it doesn't take much of either nowadays. The AutoDownload software is very simple to use compared to all the other applications I've tried. The units don't need programming like they used to and they can be used without a computer for simple events.
The fact that AutoDownload is probably used by every club in Scotland that doesn't have Emit (the majority), means you are more likely to find someone to help out on computing if you needed it, most of the Scottish "techie geeks" don't have much/any experience of Emit or it's software.
The web page results exported from the Emit software seem quite limited and not easy to read compared to those automatically generated from AutoDownload.

Disclosure: I freely admit to being biased and personally hate the size of the brikke and the awkward placing on controls (I know it should/might work if just the end is touched on the control, but then you don't get the card punched if there is a problem). Neither system is perfect, but I see fewer problems with SI.

[andy]

The fact that AutoDownload is probably used by every club in Scotland that doesn't have Emit (the majority), means you are more likely to find someone to help out on computing if you needed it, most of the Scottish "techie geeks" don't have much/any experience of Emit or it's software.

I've seen a lot of emit clubs using OE2003 which Stephan re-wrote years ago to handle emit (as well as the SI it was originally intended for). OE2003 is a really crap bit of software and the main driving force behind OE2003. If my mum can run a local event (with no input from me) with SI then any of the many (professionally?) techie people up north can do it. Have the SOA/BOF been approached for funding to help replace emit? You could even sell the emit kit to the Norwegians! I'm talking half tongue-in-cheek, half seriously here. If all the techie expertise in the uk is centred on one technology it will make running WOC easier

[Big Jon]

"If all the techie expertise in the uk is centred on one technology it will make running WOC easier"

It makes it easier for the one company to push up prices and reduce service.

[andypat]

"If all the techie expertise in the uk is centred on one technology it will make running WOC easier"

It makes it easier for the one company to push up prices and reduce service.

I guess nobody is truly neutral in this debate.....

[AndyC]

Can I try to be?
Because of my two centred lifestyle and the fact that one club in the NE (of England) and one in the Midlands (NN & OD) differ from the majority in using Emit (as does the MLN) I've bought both SI & EMIT
In the case of EMIT it was to ensure that I had later model with a display -this means that 1 know it has started ,( if I remember which button to press) the last control I visited, I have no need to carry a watch and because it apparently works on proximity I'm unlikely to fail to record a punch. I also usually know it is working before I go to the start because I've displayed its number at registration. (I usually know my SI is working for a similar reason as well)
I find Emit clumsier than SI to punch but negated slightly by losing the need to carry a watch (and by using the proximity by getting near enough for a flash rather than making contact properly in wkward positions). I've also experienced problems with SI units in the field (losing battery, being start boxes, being mistimed) I've never seen an issue with the simpler control boxes in the field for Emit.