Gale stops play?

[Mrs H]

At the risk of starting yet another negative topic - the elder Miss H who is on a year's placement with the National Trust as part of her studies - came home from work last week and said that the parkland was nearly closed to the public on account of the high winds.

This of course stems from the well publicised death of a child at one of their properties some years back when a branch fell on him (some reports had him orienteering at the time). Although the NT were not found to be at fault over their maintenance of the tree they have obviously decided to err on the side of caution and we were in fact turned away from Lyme Park on one occasion on our way from the Stockport race to visit Young Neville in Sheffield because of the wind.

We in HOC land frequently orienteer on NT land. How long will it be do you think before a windy day dawns and the NT pul the plug on an event at the last minute - and what about if the FC also decide to go down this route.

I'm not being critical of the organisations for pursuing this course. They have to defend themselves against the suing culture - they are public bodies and should look after their funds. It seems to be a fact of modern life.

But in an attempt to get ahead of the game, Is there anything we could do to forestall this happening? Is it something BOF could incorporate into their negotiations with these bodies?

What does anyone think?

[King Penguin]

I suspect more people have been killed / injured by trees falling on their cars whilst driving than when out walking / orienteering. I doubt anyone would suggest closing all roads in high winds.
Another situation where I believe the test of "reasonableness" needs to be applied. e.g. If winds are going to be 150 mph+ it might be worth considering cancellation (as must so as not to encourage people to travel) but a stiff breeze should not put us off. In fact, it's often calmer in the middle of the woods.
Maybe the test should be "can the portaloos remain upright ?".

[Mrs H]

So are you suggesting that we should incorporate something into our agreements to the effect that we will pull the plug when we think it's necessary? There is merit in taking control of a situation rather than having someone else call the shots.

I'm not arguing the logic or justification - just trying to formulate a strategy before the situation is forced on us at a couple of hours' notice.

We cancelled event on the Malvern Hills for high winds once - more because all the kites blew away than safety but I can think of some very high profile events which should not have gone ahead on safety grounds (and the portaloos did blow over)

[Marco Polo]

About 4 years ago, I cancelled an event myself due to high winds. (It was "what would now be a" level D and I was planner and organiser.) This was at a late stage- as I had just started to put out controls, but a number of freshly fallen trees, broken boughs and no sign of wind abating made up my mind.

This wasn't NT or FC land, but I suppose my point is that one way of dealing with this is that we can handle this within our own insurance and safety procedures, and can be seen to do so.

I don't know if this is the best way, and I'd certainly hope that access charges would be waived for a cancelled event- for wind or as has been more usual in the last few years- snow.

[Roger]

Some comments about WAOC Rowney Warren cancellation owing to high winds.
I wasn't there, but a couple of club-mates made the trip and agreed totally with the decision to cancel (postpone).

[Red Adder]

The child was killed by a falling beech branch whilst on a school trip to Felbrigg in Norfolk - I think a map reading exercise, not a formal O event, was involved. It was a tragedy all round - another boy had life changing injuries and it can not have been easy for the lady who evaluated the tree some months earler without finding anything amiss. Actually the law got it right in not finding any neglience on the part of the NT or their agents but of courses that does not make it any easier for for the victims or families. Things happen, perhaps this is a case for a decent caring government to step in - but don't hold your breathe.

[Mrs H]

I'm really not trying to ascribe any rights or wrongs in this case or make any judgement. As you say, tragic accidents happen and people suffer as a consequence.

Snow, flooding, foot and mouth disease,even fire risk are all a bit easier to define - but high winds are a bit more subjective and certainly more transitory. The day we were stopped from entering Lyme Park was very windy, MDOC had been unable to put their tent up in the centre of Stockport. But it never occurred to me that it was a problem. I wonder how the NT decide when it is. It might be useful if we knew what their criterion was and if it the same at all their properties. I will ask Miss H is she can find out.

[AndyO]

BOF Rules wrote
1.7.7 The Organiser shall take responsibility for deciding what action should be taken (e.g.
delaying or cancelling the event, shortening the courses) in exceptional circumstances
such as adverse weather conditions, total loss of the car park, etc.

Of course, the landowner may decide to take action directly if he is concerned about a risk of vicarious liability. As ever, good communication between the Organiser and the Landowner (or his Agent) in such circumstances may assist a sensible and reasonable decision to be made.

[Knee Deep Mud!]

My club cancelled an event a few years ago. I believe it was quite a hard decision for the organisers, as when the decision was taken on Saturday afternoon there was blue sky, sunshine, and no wind!
It was the right decision though, as the tail end of the hurricane came across Sunday morning - powerlines and trees brought down on the route to the start!
I was out in a nearby wood later on Sunday, and it was quite scary. Didn't stay in the trees for long. It's quite interesting seeing just how far a moderately sized tree trunk can bend without breaking!

[AndyC]

I see the Tour of Britain cycle race lost today's stage because of high winds

[Mrs H]

Quite a few properties were closed in the last couple of days. Miss H says she thinks the safety limit is 30mph winds.

[AndyC]

Some of our Scottish (and Welsh?) friends will point out that 30mph is close to average in some areas!

[Safety]

I see the Tour of Britain cycle race lost today's stage because of high winds

Yes the your was cancelled for 1 day (Monday) because of the wind. When they cancelled it the prom at Blackpool was at high tide and the waves were crashing over onto the finish straight. However when we got there (cycling) the tide had gone out a bit and it wasn't too bad. The main problem I believe was on the hill tops where it was very exposed.

Worst event I have run in for high winds was in Northumbria where there was one long leg straight into the wind where I am sure people ran behind each other to stay sheltered and save energy.

(Yes the portaloo blew over)

[PorkyFatBoy]

Some comments about WAOC Rowney Warren cancellation owing to high winds.
I wasn't there, but a couple of club-mates made the trip and agreed totally with the decision to cancel (postpone).

I remember that day as I was trying to fly from Heathrow and most flights were cancelled or severely delayed until the late evening. Was definitely the right decision IMO.

[OldManHOC]

It is not just high winds DURING a race - we had access suspended because of the risk of "hanging timber" - this is branches, limbs and trees damaged during high winds but not yet fallen to the ground. Once the Lickey Hills CP rangers had been round and assessed the area access was restored.

That was an urban park - certainly not practical in a major forest

I have been orienteering 36 years and have only seen a tree fall once (and that was across a water channel in Costa Rica - blocked our route home)