Lincoln City Race 2011

[Homer]

I think the standards say that if the description says Crag, but doesn't say foot, then by definition it is the top.

There was some discussion of this at Day 5 of the Scottish as the descriptions didn't follow this convention...

I'm sure it's actually foot by default rather than top.

[awk]

I have to admit that I read it from the word go as crag, inside SW orientated corner. I can see why people might have mistaken it for crag foot, and sympathise, especially in the heat of competition. However, I strongly suspect (having been in the postion of planner) that all the planner and controller were trying to do was give as precise information as they could, and will not have seen any ambiguity in the description. Yes, in hindsight, north side would have probably been better, but in the past controllers and planners have been criticised for not being precise enough.

Spookster - they both go in the same column. Suggests to me that they perhaps need to be more easily distinguished. Theoretically, they are, but we've all had to deal with enough variations over the years to make this sort of mistake when the printer has actually got it right.

On whether the default is top or foot, I can't find one in the standards, and don't think there is one. As far as i can recall, It needs to be put in if the control is either only visible or approachable from one direction or another.

Part of the problem was the way the feature was mapped - as a rock face/crag. I mistakenly argued in a discussion at the finish that this can also be a retaining wall, but I actually can't find that in the standards (so, sorry Graham!!). As I see it, if it's a wall, it should be mapped as such (one could get away with an explanation in final details I suppose). The inside corner descriptor would then have made more instant sense, and been less likely to be mistaken as 'foot' too.

Overall, a great course - lots of imagination. Personally, I struggled with the 1:5k scale, especially in the drizzle (magnifier useless), to the extent that I was running pretty blind into quite a few controls, and did get caught out once or twice. Got lucky on 4 (on the B - first control in the castle) -I never saw the gap in the wall until after finishing, but saw someone come out as I approached (I spent most of the leg wondering how on earth I was going to get in there!).

[Gnitworp]

I figured it out - tbh the leg wouldnt really have made sense if the control was at the crag foot.

I disagree, I visited the crag foot and thought the 'leg' from here to the actual control site was a great route-choice 'leg', with a tricky control at its end. I failed to spot the best route. Many of you semantic geniuses missed out on this additional challenge

[seabird]

Loved the race. Thanks LOG.

I was one caught out by 50 - but no complaints. I agree with the view that it should be mapped as an uncrossable wall. I feel the only walls that should be mapped as crags are ha-has (as per recent discussion). or other walls that only have a drop on one side, e.g. a stream near my house has a 2m wall/cliff on one outside bend.

The first control on the castle had me briefly perplexed. The area the control was in seemed to my eyes (not the best) to be surrounded by buildings and uncrossable walls. I quickly realised that the only way in had to be through the uncrossable wall. And indeed there was an open gate in a wall, which I can just about discern on the map in non-racing mode, and which has the correct thin linear canopy symbol. But even now I have to peer hard to see it.

I wonder whether such features are not shown more clearly by just using the paved area symbol for the gap. On another course a feature made hard to discern in this way could obscure a route choice for at least some competitors?

I hasten to add that in mapping such features I have done just what the mapper this time has done. No longer sure it's the best solution.

[Scott]

I think the standards say that if the description says Crag, but doesn't say foot, then by definition it is the top.

There was some discussion of this at Day 5 of the Scottish as the descriptions didn't follow this convention...

I'm sure it's actually foot by default rather than top.

The rules don't actually state it explicity, but if you look at the illustrations for crag in the back it's pretty clear that foot is intended to be the default flag location.

OOPS edit: The rules do actually say:

No symbol is required to describe the location of the control flag in relation to the feature if the control flag is positioned at, or as near as possible to, the centre of the feature (or the centre of the foot in the case of the cliff).

[pete.owens]

With the trail-O rules (which take control descriptions very seriously) it is explicit that foot is the default control location for a crag.

Shouldn't that have been South corner rather than SW in any case?

[Spookster]

The other wall that I thought was strangely mapped was the use of the stone wall symbol (519) for the wall that is on both sides of the main road bridge over the river and railway. The wall is not stone, and it's much higher than 2m for most of its length, so the impassable wall symbol would seem more likely.

[Sloop]

May I be the first to congratulate Paul on giving us an excellent long leg right across the map ?

There was an equally good long leg in the Erskine race early this year, but such things are rare in all forms of orienteering, and shouldn't be.

[graeme]

I can't remember while racing which column on the CDs each of those two sub-descriptions should go in,

Wouldn't help: foot goes in column G, while SW corner is in, er, column G.

I'm really disappointed not to have driven the length of the country for the opportunity to figure out whether the bottom line of the control subdescription is 1 or 2 mm long.

[Spookster]

May I be the first to congratulate Paul on giving us an excellent long leg right across the map ?

Yes, that was good, and there were several other very interesting route choice legs as well.

[awk]

I'm really disappointed not to have driven the length of the country for the opportunity to figure out whether the bottom line of the control subdescription is 1 or 2 mm long.

You missed a really good course. It's not really either planner or controller's fault if there is a potential mixup between two standard international symbols - a mixup that has not been picked up before as far as I can see at any level of competition (certainly not been publicised), and never occurred to the officials (it wouldn't have done to me either). It didn't occur to me when I read the description. It is, however, one to note for future.

[andypat]

The legs to that control would still have been great if the control had been placed unambiguously on the hedge (orchard) where it usually is.

(my bold)

Ah! Perhaps that says more about the nub of the issue than all of the other comments put together?

[Spookster]

Ah! Perhaps that says more about the nub of the issue than all of the other comments put together?

No, I don't think so. My point is that the control could have been 3m further north, and described as being on a hedge (which is actually a row of trees), and it would have removed any possible chance of mis-interpretation of the control descriptions.

[awk]

No, I don't think so. My point is that the control could have been 3m further north, and described as being on a hedge (which is actually a row of trees), and it would have removed any possible chance of mis-interpretation of the control descriptions.

Totally agree Spookster, but I suspect that the potential mis-interpretation was never spotted. I know that I wouldn't have done so (which is probably why I'm not a high level controller!).

[Electrocuted]

May I be the first to congratulate Paul on giving us an excellent long leg right across the map ?

There was an equally good long leg in the Erskine race early this year, but such things are rare in all forms of orienteering, and shouldn't be.

And thanks for making the long leg mostly downhill!

I really enjoyed the Lincoln event, my messing up no. 2 aside. My problem with no. 2 was I realised it was on the north side of the wall halfway through my leg but just couldn't see a way in. Those stairs are very small. Not having run in the area before was a big disadvantage, but I now know for next year!