HISTORICAL WOC RESULTS?

[Spookster]

Has there been a previous WOC where so many world-class orienteers have made so many big mistakes ?
Or do we just know more about them with increased use of GPS tracking and radio controls ?
Does the very high percentage of big mistakes mean this WOC was "different" to others?

I think we've had lots of GPS and radio controls before, but this WOC was significantly more technically challenging. The analysis of the Long on WorldOfO is interesting. A lot of people lost a lot of time on the hardest legs, such as the first control on Mens' and Womens' which Minna Kaupi never found.

And in the relay, I've never seen anyone win a WOC Gold medal with the kind of mistake Minna made in that run!

[blairtrewin]

Spookster obviously wasn't around to see Annichen Kringstad's run in Australia in 1985. At the time she was probably 6-8 minutes faster over a long course than anyone else in the field, and that day she used it all.

[EddieH]

Andypat wrote:

"The plain fact is we dont have sufficient orienteers in total to allow enough good elites to come through. If we rely on the performances of a few top quality individuals, then performances year on year will be sporadic, dependent on training, injury etc of the few who are good enough, with noone there to fill the place."

What a didacticly negative statement. The French clearly had a far smaller base when they developed Thiery et al.

I accept a broader base helps, but the plain fact is that if there is enough commitment it is possible to become world class. Just look at the Williams sisters in tennis. If you'd invented that story no-one would have accepted it as having a single foot in reality.

[229]

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[madmike]

229,
I agree with lots of what you say - make them athletes first then tidy up the orienteering. Indeed I have heard that been a key part of Toni L's successful philosophy at Edinburgh but as you say we need to start before they get to Uni.

I have always held the view that the ability to run sub 30 mins for 10k is what you will need to challenge for WOC podiums regardless of your technical ability, or ability to perform under pressure. Therefore, 15 min 5k might not be quite good enough but agree with you on the principle.

WRT coaching courses, the new UKCC L2 now includes the physical aspect as well as technique, delivery, safety etc and I believe (but have not seen it as UKCCL3 not yet released) that Paul Murgatroyd has done substantial physical training content for the new UKCCL3, which will also include elements like nutrition. So your point is already understood and being addressed. You are, therefore, commenting accurately but belatedly on the old scheme, which needed changing and is actually being changed for the better.

[Mrs H]

Certainly in my family's day I can confirm that that selection of juniors for squad training at the age of 14 took no account of running ability or potential.

[229]

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[madmike]

Yes Mrs H and if your aim is to develop elite athletes to win WOC medals that was a mistake of course if you have a different aim with your squads then is a physical test of that kind too exclusive?

Scotia has already been mentioned and i would also point to srollins as an example of someone who took up orienteering at University but had the athletic skills to move up to elite level pdq.

[frostbite]

I thought I would see what Thierry Geourgiou thought made the difference

From a world-of-o interview

In your training: Do you put priority on running in the forest or on the road/track? What is your PB in 3000m/5000m?
My priority is always to try to be an orienteer who will perform well at the coming World Championships. So, I evaluate the aspects that I consider as primordial to handle. If I think that next WOC race need to be especially good in some style of running, I will include it during my basic trainings. But as I am also passionate about orienteering techniques, I must say that I am also training a lot in orienteering just to enjoy the feeling when you are on the edge and close to your limits of controlling your orienteering.
I never ran 3000m or 5000m seriously.

And from a different article on w-of-o

Perfectionist
A good illustration of the perfectionist Gueorgiou is the following short story:
- When I started running for the Finnish club Kalevan Rasti, they laughed at me when they saw my control descriptions in which I put up 1 second mistakes [see illustration to the right]. But their attitude soon turned, and they started doing the same themselves. I am not satisfied until there are only zeros along the right edge of that control description.

So... physical training should be relevant to the anticipated terrain and 5k times are not the be all and end all. You may be right about the level of fitness in general of British orienteers and the development of juniors but it wasn't the problem last week - mistakes were.

Orienteering in Britain does not really punish mistakes in the same way. Even in the most technical areas 2 or 3 minute errors by our top orienteers are rare, whereas in the WOC areas (and in training camps beforehand) they were struggling to get round a course without a couple of 5 minute+ errors. It wasn't just the British either, but clearly Thierry had no problems.

[andypat]

What a didacticly negative statement. The French clearly had a far smaller base when they developed Thiery et al.

I accept a broader base helps, but the plain fact is that if there is enough commitment it is possible to become world class. Just look at the Williams sisters in tennis. If you'd invented that story no-one would have accepted it as having a single foot in reality.

Eddie - as usual you see what you want to see! Sure with enough commitment you can make anyone a better orienteer, but only some of those will become world beaters. If you want to increase your odds of netting a winner you need to widen the net. You may be right about France (in terms of numbers although you fail to back this up) and you I am sure know how to get more out of athletes than I do, but unless orienteering can become a more populist sport in terms of numbers then i cant see us doing consistently better in future. We should applaud any success that comes along and enjoy it.

[Becks]

I'm also not sure that track times are the be all and end all, but in the past our juniors have definitely not been fit enough (my generation being a prime example!) and some well guided training would have helped. I think the current block are taking physical training way more seriously than we ever did, and I know the Swedish tour that Nick and Co are running this week ran a 3km on their first day. As with all things, there's a balance.

[harry]

I have always held the view that the ability to run sub 30 mins for 10k is what you will need to challenge for WOC podiums regardless of your technical ability, or ability to perform under pressure.

Well your view is inaccurate. The 3K time trial times of the best Norwegian men (8:45-9:15) are only equivalent to 10K performances of around 31-33 min. This includes Lundanes, Waaler Kaas, Nordberg, Weltzien and even the sprint specialist Østerbø (the fastest runner of that group and the only one without a WOC medal: 2*4th place in WOC sprint).

Orienteering performances and therefore results actually seem to be determined mainly by the speed one is able to orienteer around an orienteering course.

[NeilC]

So... physical training should be relevant to the anticipated terrain and 5k times are not the be all and end all. You may be right about the level of fitness in general of British orienteers and the development of juniors but it wasn't the problem last week - mistakes were.

I'm no (sports) scientist but have noticed over the years that in a brashed, rocky forest I can run past a number of orienteers that leave me standing in a road race (or along a forest track). Perhaps this is just a confidence thing or perhaps represents differential muscle formations. In the recent past haven't the squad done terrain time trials? Perhaps a better indication of orienteering fitness than track running?

[harry]

Every year after WOC come the cries "the Brits are just not fit enough".

Of course we all need to keep getting fitter but the truth is we can't orienteer well enough and make too many and too big mistakes to fight for medals in anything except men's sprint (and maybe men's relay on a good day).

We need to work on every aspect. Not least running ability on hard ground for WOC in Switzerland (but we will still lose more time if we take the wrong route choice).

[Scott]

Orienteering in Britain does not really punish mistakes in the same way. Even in the most technical areas 2 or 3 minute errors by our top orienteers are rare

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but the other reason orienteering in British doesn't punish mistakes in the same way as in some other countries is because the standard of competition is usually lower.

If you were 5% down on the winner's time on M18E at BOC this year, you would have come second, and there were 7 runners within 125% of the winner's time. I know it's a slightly ridiculous comparison, on H18A at the 2010 Swedish Long Champs you had to be within a minute of the winner's time just to come 4th, and there were 29(!) runners within 125%.

Obviously this is partly due to the (much) lower numbers in the UK, but I think it is true that if you have a group of very good athletes all pushing each other to be top of the domestic competition then it inevitably raises standards - it encourages the "every second counts" attitude that frostbite quotes from Thierry. It is rare for every second to actually count in quite that way in British domestic orienteering (outside of sprint races, at least).