How much would you pay for a Harvesters run?

[SeanC]

Please assume:

A "good" area such as this years area within 2 hours travel time.
You have no other committments - weddings etc. and your club can make a team.
The rules are as now.

(this is to help any potential organisers work out what they might earn from this event - compared to say a better attended day event).

[Mrs H]

I suspect that HOC is not the only club that pays the entry fee for the whole team at relays - so even lots of us who actually ran may not know how much the entry fee is at the moment - perhaps you should have had another option in the poll as to how much clubs are prepared to fund the teams.

[RJ]

While I can see where you are going with this SeanC, I would like to suggest that the cost is only relevant to the competitor, and that the club wouldn't use it as a starting point for staging the event.

Personally I would recommend to our committee that we offer to put the Harvester on, if we have a suitable area and the infrastructure to support the event. How much money we would derive as a 'profit' wouldn't come into the equation. Much more relevant would be the expected number of teams that might enter. Catering for 200 orienteers is 'borderline', particularly for the amount of effort involved. However, the 'bells & whistles' can be trimmed off and then expenses kept to a minimum. But that isn't in the 'expectations' for a 'national standard' event!!

[andypat]

I suspect that HOC is not the only club that pays the entry fee for the whole team at relays - so even lots of us who actually ran may not know how much the entry fee is at the moment - perhaps you should have had another option in the poll as to how much clubs are prepared to fund the teams.

Our club asks adults to pay £5 towards any relay run, which seems reasonable. Our club captain was keen to submit a team but couldnt raise the numbers required. I suspect thats partly because our club is fairly small with lots of families. The format of the harvester I guess means its not that family friendly - notwithstanding the excellent weekend events SHUOC put on.

The other thread talks about competitiveness - I think theres a relationship between how far away an event is and how many average orienteers are prepared to travel. Likewise I think the top class ones might be less likely to travel if the club can only field an average team.

[follyfoot]

What about all the clubs that dont pay a single penny towards relay runs - No assistance at British Relays, JK, Harvesters, or when running for the Club at the Compass Sport Cup, often running out of class.

[Mrs H]

Well what do you want us to say? If this applies to you and you feel hard done by then you have a number of choices:
I join another club
2 go on the committee and instigate change
3 refuse to run at relays
4 put up and shut up

I merely said I didn't think HOC would be the only club in this position - it may be that your club has other membership incentives - low annual fees, low/no entry fees for helping at events etc but as I used to say when the children were little and the green eyed monster put in an appearance:"Someone else's good luck is not your bad luck!"

[andypat]

What about all the clubs that dont pay a single penny towards relay runs - No assistance at British Relays, JK, Harvesters, or when running for the Club at the Compass Sport Cup, often running out of class.

I'm with Mrs H on this one - whats your point caller?

[SeanC]

[quote="RJ"]While I can see where you are going with this [b]SeanC[/b], I would like to suggest that the cost is only relevant to the competitor, and that the club wouldn't use it as a starting point for staging the event.
[/quote]

I think the likely profit/loss is an important factor. I'm trying to think how a Harvester's discussion might play out in a club meeting...

"Shall we organise the Harvester's this year?"
"We're maxed out on organisers and planners - no room for a big extra event"
"We could drop 5 local events?"
"And give our members 5 less events this year, plus have less newcomers join us?"
"How about we drop our annual regional event - just for one year? Orienteering has plenty of other regional events but only one Harvesters"
"OK, but the regional event is half as much organising time, generates more income and we don't have to stay up all night".

There's not much we can do about the organising time, or the middle of the night bit but giving the organising club extra money is possible. Money does matter at big events as the bills can be high.

I can't think of another way of making the event more attractive to organise without changing the event - and the rules don't allow that.

Of course next year's organising club might be about to raise it's head so this might not be necessary.

I didn't realise some clubs paid their members their entry fees. This could be a way forward. Raise the entry fee to £15 or £20 and the clubs subsidise to keep the cost down to the individual since some of you are unwilling to pay over a tenner? You couldn't do this with frequent regional events but it's possible for special one off events like the Harvesters.

[Dave]

I think the likely profit/loss is an important factor. I'm trying to think how a Harvester's discussion might play out in a club meeting...

Why is profit such a big deal? Admittedly, you don't want to make a loss, fair enough, but should the aim for organising what should be a flagship event really be to roll in the cash? -No.
Maybe I have missed all the work your club does with its high event profits, but shouldn't the quality of orienteering experience come first some of the time?

After all, that is what is going to grip your many newcomers you feel you might lose for putting the harvesters on.
What's wrong with investing time to put on a one off top notch event without worrying about how many hundreds of pounds will be made?

[SJC]

Why is profit such a big deal? Admittedly, you don't want to make a loss, fair enough, but should the aim for organising what should be a flagship event really be to roll in the cash? -No.

Try telling that to BOF when it comes to setting entry fees for the JK and British Championships.

[SeanC]

Dave - I understand your viewpoint but...

I can't speak for other clubs but I would not expect a Harvester's at £10 per entry in my area to make a profit. Entries of approx 50 teams might not even cover the cost of the map, even before land use / parking charges etc etc. There is the expectation of the best possible area and the best possible (ie newly resurveyed) map. We could pick a cheaper, and possibly less suitable area, and not do a resurvey but this might damage the events brand image and some clubs would stop going to future Harvester's.

I understand there is no organising club next year. It seems to me that in the past we have expected a club to organise this in addition to their other big events. I suggest that we should instead expect clubs to organise this event instead of another big event (such as a regional), but would clubs seriously consider this option? I would like to think so but this would be asking clubs to put on a much more challenging event for a greater loss/less profit (especially in the more central areas where regional event numbers are often 400+)? A £15 or £20 entry fee (or maybe charge £10 for camping?) might persuade committee members who aren't Harvester's enthusiasts to view it as an income source to invest in club development - and therefore worth sacrificing their yearly regional for.

I suspect once this event stops it will be gone forever - so something for Harvester's enthusiasts to discuss in Scotland when everyone's stopped talking about how you get to Day 5.

[graeme]

What's wrong with investing time to put on a one off top notch event without worrying about how many hundreds of pounds will be made?

I think its about ownership.
There's a big perception difference between putting on a top notch event that you want to do and one that other people want you to do . BOF events tend to fall in the second category.

Thinking of top-notch Scottish events, I see the contrast between

1/ 2010 Park World Tour - we really wanted to do this, there was no need to.
2/ 2011 6-day - we "own" this, there's more a feeling of obligation.
3/ 2012 JK - we've been told its our turn and we have to do it.

2015 WOC - Open question here.

(of course, PWT did accidentally make hundreds of pounds and I'm trying to grab ownership of the JK sprint)

[andypat]

Out of interest who "puts on" the big scandinavian relays? Is asking a club to put on the harvester the best model?

[seabird]

50 teams at £10 per head raises approx £3000 - more than enough for a new PG plot and brand new map, if you take into account the revenue form subsequent events - but both of which are unlikely to be needed.

Volunteer time has been quoted as a problem - but my experience is that a successful Harvester can be run by a surprisingly small team After all there are unlikely to be more than 50 people out running at any one time (give or take the odd mass start)

Obviously the more add-on events staged during the weekend - the bigger the volunteer load. If provided, could these not be staged by neighbouring clubs?

The hardest thing to provide for the Harvester is a suitable area - able to accomodate the longer courses and provide decent runnability and navigational challenge, relatively free from the worst of summer undergrowth. My club have struggled for years to identify an area that we could use for the Harvester - there are a good few of us who would love to stage it. We have never identified a good and available location. I guess many other clubs are in a similar situation.

Could it be that the Harvester would be best suited to a small but proven rota of locations - a bit like the Open Golf Tournament? After all Ecclesall Woods crops up often enough.

If that was too much for the club whose territory the event was on, could not the respective Regions take on the event and use volunteers from a number of local clubs?
Eg members of EBOR helped out HALO when they staged the Harvester.

Just off the top of my head recent venues that have done the business well have been Merthyr Common, Eridge, Pillar Woods, the Roxburgh Reivers area - can't remember the name. There are doubtless other areas equally good that have been used which I have overlooked or never attended. All would be suitable for further outings for this race after a reasonable gap.

[SeanC]

Cost - I guess it depends on whether you are paying and how much you are paying your mapper?

Seabird - haven't you got some nice sheep grazed limestone moorland areas that would be fine in July?

I believe one of the reasons Saxons did the Harvesters in May was because the vegetation gets too thick at Eridge after that, though that results in fixtures congestion. There was also a big land use fee - about £1000 I believe.

Yes the ownership is a good point. Another option is that the event is permanently owned by student clubs or ex-Student clubs. They take ownership of the rules from BOF and clubs donate areas. Charge a bit more and the profit goes to the student club to help with student O development. BOF could help by subsidising mapping costs or guarenteeing that the event at least breaks even.

On the night help - I don't think this has to be a problem as lots of competitors are hanging around for hours and would be willing to help.