Scottish Championships 2011

[EddieH]

As BigJon alluded to, on Saturday the terrain varied massively. I am pretty sure that the M16A course, the shortest to cross over to Mill of Fortune, had the highest proportion of slower stuff of all the courses.

Being unhappy to run TD4 seems to me to be a problem of perception with your youngster Frog, as the majority of level A events in the UK are held on areas where in truth there is no TD5. The basic difference is that at TD4 errors are not meant to result in massive time loss - within that proviso the navigation can be properly challenging.

[frog]

At colour coded events he's running green though, so it seems a backwards step for him to run light green if there are TD5 courses available.
He might just have to stick with M21V for now, or maybe M18S which was the same course at the Scottish champs (and were 5k rather than the 7.5k of M16A) and would have got him a fridge magnet if he'd entered! At the 6 days the M18S is the same as M16A and a bit longer than the M21V though. All seems a bit random.

[awk]

But that's only a matter of perception frog. As Eddie pointed out, most UK area are TD4 max, so most green courses are TD4 too. In those cases, the difference between Green and.LG is only one of distance.

[Gross]

But that's only a matter of perception frog.

Perception means a lot to youngsters though... and the not so young (why are there elite classes when clearly the majority of entrants are far from elite?)

[graeme]

The basic difference is that at TD4 errors are not meant to result in massive time loss - within that proviso the navigation can be properly challenging.

Which means, curiously, that "TD4" can be fine for elites, for whom a minute lost bouncing back from a catching feature is a significant time loss, but not for punters for whom it is normal.
Whether you can sell that line to Duncan is another story

[Lucy.F.]

One point that arose on Saturday regarding the course times was that some people were actually unable to punch the finish despite completing the course. The finish punch was taken in at the advertised course closing time of 1730. However, by that point, 69 people who had completed their course (and punched the finish) had taken over 2hrs. One of our members had been helping all day and had therefore had one of the latest start times. The latest start time was 1530 - giving just 2hrs maximum for the unlucky helpers to complete their course. Furthermore, the member mentioned would have won W21L had she been able to punch the finish.

I can fully understand the situation leading to longer course times but perhaps in a situation like this, in future, course closing times should be reconsidered? Just like the mass start on Sunday had to be delayed quite a bit due to the longer times being taken.

[andy]

One point that arose on Saturday regarding the course times was that some people were actually unable to punch the finish despite completing the course.

I assume they put in a formal complaint, I know I would because that's ridiculous.

[andypat]

Hmmm. I don't think you can change a closing time during the actual race though. Since its the competitors responsibility to finish by the closing time it wouldn't seem fair to give a race win to someone who stayed out all evening to finish the course, over someone possibly faster who DNF to get back to the finish in time. We dont want to encourage that sort of behaviour now......

Agree though with hindsight maybe the course closing time was a bit tight (or maybe the start window was too late)- I started at 2.50 but would have missed the course closing by 20min or so had I kept going. I've no complaints though - I was just really really slow.

[mappingmum]

One of our members had been helping all day . . . .

Dear Lucy

Please don't take the moral high ground regarding the assistance of your club on the day to this event.

Many many people from ESOA clubs invested a full day to the cause. Some people (for example those from TAY) helped on both Saturday and Sunday. The car park at Cultybraggan was heaving with helpers at 10 am when your minibus was still south of the Forth Road Bridge.

The allocation of tasks on Saturday had to be altered to accommodate the time your minibus was leaving Edin and to ensure your team were able to make it to your AGM in the evening. Now you complain that you want the course opening time to be extended to accomodate your runners!

Your protests about other helpers doing their job at the allocated time falls on deaf ears, I'm afraid.

Thanks for the effort you gave to the cause on the day. Every little does help and fortunately helping at the Scottish Champs only comes around once every 3 years.

[RJ]

Ouch!!

[RWK]

Mapping Mum, I don't think Lucy was trying to take the high ground at all, simply pointing out that helping shouldn't then mean not being able to finish your course. The W21 in question finished a mere 2 minutes after the closing time, surely the finish box wouldn't normally be the first thing taken in? And I'm sorry if we caused problems by you having to re-allocate positions. I personally enjoyed my job of sitting at a road crossing in the rain for two hours, while not seeing a single competitor or car...

[awk]

Thanks for the effort you gave to the cause on the day. Every little does help and fortunately helping at the Scottish Champs only comes around once every 3 years.

I think you just lost a whole bunch of volunteers next time round. Lucy's post was a perfectly reasonable (and reasoned) suggestion.

[Jon X]

I know I defended the event earlier against the suggestion that the finish had been collected in early.....however that does not mean I think it was a good decision to collect it in bang on 1730 either!

It would have been sensible (IMO) to show some allowance for the considerable overplanning on some courses (which is hardly the competitor's fault!) and leave the finish open for a while longer......it would also have been easier to justify the letter-of-the-law collection time had the course closing time actually been displayed on the control descriptions (which I think may actually be a requirement for applying any closing time anyway?).

[Scott]

had the course closing time actually been displayed on the control descriptions (which I think may actually be a requirement for applying any closing time anyway?).

Warning: serious rules geekery ahead.

This is a bit of a grey area. Appendix A says:

1.2.2 The only BOF addition [to the IOF control description standard] is that the final box on the pictorial version or the final line on the written version should give details of the course closing time.

Unfortunately this sentence is in bold, which means it's "mandatory", but also contains the word "should", which means it's "desirable, but not essential" (In fairness, this Appendix has a 1.X version number, which I think means it is still awaiting a "proper" review.)

But yes, I think it's reasonable to infer that if you are going to strictly enforce a course closing time then it really ought to be on the descriptions.

[EddieH]

I hate criticsing organisers, but I sadly agree with AWK that Mappingmum's post to Lucy is likely to put off many helpers.

Lucy's point is entirely valid. I am only aware of one occasion when this has happened before - i.e. removing the last control bang on closing time when the course have turned out to be longer than anticipated. This was also at a Scottish Championships as it happens and meant that a potential winner of W21E was unable to finish - a totally farcical situation.

When I've been involved we always collect the early controls first, and never the finish at closing time if there are still runners out.

On Sunday, unaware that we had not had the secon women's open 2nd leg finish, I announced the mini mass start, to be surrounded by desparate ladies. It was immediately clear to me that the compulsory mini mass start had to be delayed and we organised a voluntary one instead.