Scottish Championships 2011

[awk]

Is 45 - 55 mins still too long, or is it about right these days?

Too much ancient baggage being carried - sorry! Thanks for that David - no, that's about right (IMO).

[Big Jon]

Looking at Route Gadget it seems there is a massive difference in courses - some had a visit to the nice open moor, others stayed in the green spruce area for much of their length - that could explain why some classes had so much faster times for similar length courses.

[frog]

re the long orange course thing maybe as many of us who started as adults worked our way up the courses, just at a rapid rate that's what we should encourage runners to do. Charge them 1 entry fee for as many courses as they can run in the session, white then yellow , or white then orange. Would only work in events where the start is near the finish though.

[Roger]

But could you actually read a map already Roger? I think we sometimes forget that some adult novices are also new to mapreading.

I loved maps: back-seat navigator on some Esso freebie road maps, mapped the field next to our house when still at primary school, navigated on OS maps in the hills and on some creative bits of cartography in the Alps. So although I'd never seen an O-map, or used a scale as large as 1:10,000, it didn't take too long to tune in.

Edit - and the evidence suggests that people like that, once they've had a go, will stick with orienteering. The week before my orienteering debut I ran my first marathon, and although I vowed at the finish 'I will definitely do another one because I can do much better than that', it remains my sole road marathon.

[LostAgain]

re the M16/18 etc I think it's a shame the system is geared at the elite orienteers as very few of us end up in that bracket. Yes we need to produce orienteers capable of running elite distances but we don't want to alienate teenagers who don't want to do alot of running training who have other hobbies/ exams/ are never going to be good enough to be elite anyway but still enjoy orienteering and in the future could help organise events etc if we don't make them feel there isn't a space for them.
I'd feel happier if M16 was more greenish in distance with the good M16s maybe encouraged to run up to M18 which could maybe be similarly scaled down a bit, with the good M18s running up to M20 etc. By the time you get to M21 there is more flexibility with 4 distances to choose from but the slower/ less keen teenagers have maybe given up by then. There was only 1 M21V entry in the Scottish champs.

It is not geared to elite orienteering 45-55min winning time is fine for M16.
With the colour system you do not have to enter your "Age Class" blue for M16's. Enter green if not ready for the blue.
When it comes to the Championships it seems wrong to ask the courses to be planned for the weaker runners. It's the Championships for the age class, if not up to it don't enter. There are many other events you can go to.

The Scottish does seem a little long.
We went to Springtime in Shropshire where M16 winning times were 43 & 50'ish minutes for the Long and 33 for the Middle. Although these times are all modified after Planning/Controlling mistakes required legs to be removed

[EddieH]

I caame into O as a total no -athlete, but experienced hill walker. I started immediately on the longest courses available, (and badge events were then supposed to be 81 minute winning time for M21A, and championships over 90 minutes).

Had I only been offered yellow, however long, I'd not have been hooked from my first event.

Horses for courses, but I suspect I am far from unique.

[DeerTick]

but I suspect I am far from unique.

I beg to differ, Eddie. I suspect you are

AP

[greywolf]

Not quite sure that it's down to BOF here ... Had the event been the British and not the Scottish Championships, M16A would have been planned to have a winning time of 45 - 55 minutes, just over half of the actual winner's time in Scotland.

Strictly speaking it would be planned to a corrected course length ratio of 0.48 of M21E - "Estimated Winning Times are provided as guidance only".

The course length rules for BOC and the area champs (inc Scottish) are exactly the same - which is part of the problem, as lower numbers at the latter mean courses get combined, and typically M16A gets chucked in with M60L (supposed to be 0.51 of M21E) and M55L (supposed to be 0.56 of M21E) - at Auchingarrich Course 9 which covered these 3 classes was ~ 0.56 of M21E....

So maybe not BOF's fault, but given that AFAICS all the area champs combine courses, whichever bit of BOF writes event rules could help by giving some useful guidance on combinations - M16 might be better off sharing with W45L/M45S? (i.e. a course that ought to take Hazel D 55-65 mins...)

[Paul Frost]

RouteGadget for the Relay now available

[awk]

Strictly speaking it would be planned to a corrected course length ratio of 0.48 of M21E - "Estimated Winning Times are provided as guidance only".

The course length rules for BOC and the area champs (inc Scottish) are exactly the same - which is part of the problem, as lower numbers at the latter mean courses get combined, and typically M16A gets chucked in with M60L (supposed to be 0.51 of M21E) and M55L (supposed to be 0.56 of M21E) - at Auchingarrich Course 9 which covered these 3 classes was ~ 0.56 of M21E....

I don't think it's just about combinations, but about the nature of the area. PHysically hard and (to a lesser extent) more technical areas will open up gaps between the elite and others. A course at 0.48 of elite on (say) Cannoch Chase will give a very different winning time to a course of 0.48 on (say) Auchingarrich, even if the elite are running the same times. To try and get a winning time of 45-55 mins for an M16 on Auchingarrich, I would have thought the fraction would have needed to have been lower than 0.48 (assuming the elite are running the target times, which they weren't).

There may also be another issue to watch out for. Looking at the last 2 British Championships, if the M21Es had had courses that achieved the upper end of their range (i.e. 90-95), and if the M16s had had courses at exactly the ratio (0.48), then on both occasions the winning times would have been higher than the M16 estimated winning time ranges - admittedly not by much, but still outside, and one to watch if planners start to go for the longer times on M21E.

Having said all this, I do have huge sympathy with planners on this one. It doesn't matter how much you go over previous results, estimate speeds etc etc., trying to hit target times is a really black art, one that i perenially struggle to get absolutely right. I know that one should be planning based on the ratios, but as a planner and competitor, I'd rather see the times right than the ratio (if I had to choose).

[greywolf]

I don't think it's just about combinations

...that's why i said it was part of the problem. But sticking M16A on a course 17% longer than they would normally get can't help. IMHO the course ratios / estimated winning times need some adjustments too.

[frog]

I still don't see the rationale for having M16b only TD4.
OK I can accept that you maybe want a course a fast 16 year old can go round in 45-55 minutes, but most of those entering wanting to run at an age group based competition by M16 will have been orienteering a few years, have done M14 and be ready for TD5.
Teenagers like to compete against their age group in competitions (although he also like to compete against me hense the courses we are running at the 6 days). Giving an M 16 a choice between a long TD5 or a TD4 that makes him feel he isn't progressing if he's ran M14A for 2 years isn't a great choice.
Up to M16 I think we have the courses right. Why can't M16 have an S course rather than a B course.

[graeme]

I still don't see the rationale for having M16b only TD4.

The rationale is that at 14-16 we're still trying to recruit new people i.e. 16 year-olds who don't yet know what they're doing technically. After that we're just trying to retain what we have.

I'm not saying BOF has this right, but that's the rationale.

[King Penguin]

Horses for courses, but I suspect I am far from unique.

My entry into the sport was almost identical. First event Kingsbury Water Park, where I ran the longest available, followed by Blue at the next few events. I did my first Brown at Ansons Bank on Cannock Chase. My son's headmaster joked at the start that he'd return to collect me the following weekend. I did complete before courses closed.

[King Penguin]

I know that one should be planning based on the ratios, but as a planner and competitor, I'd rather see the times right than the ratio (if I had to choose).

Agree entirely.