Scottish Championships 2011

[Paul Frost]

If you upload any photos to Flickr add the tag “scottishorienteeringchamps2011” they will show up on the SOC photos page.

[Freefall]

It's great to have an event just like we used to in the old days. Long and unrelenting and hard but I didn't lose interest in the course. Any M16 who decides to keep orienteering after that will find it easy in the future. Unfortunately I crocked my back stooping under the branches so apologies to my FVO team mates for being forced to drop out of the relay the next day with only a few hundred metres to go. It really was that bad and I just hope that someone can work miracles before the LAMM.

[awk]

Any M16 who decides to keep orienteering after that will find it easy in the future.

This, frog's and AncientFootsteps's comments probably helps explain why we tend to have quite a strong top end at M/W18-20, with absolutely nothing underneath. A bit of a dire situation for a sport where the course that has M20L and M21S can't get enough runners finished to award ranking points at one of the premier races of the season.

[frog]

I can see that by 16 boys will be expected to run longer distances, but it seems strange for them to go from TD4 to a TD5 of nearly double the distance. Also for those like my son who enter M16 having just turned 14 they are still physically quite small, and as girls enter puberty earlier than boys the 14-15 year old girls are often bigger than their male classmates. The W16 girls run a green length course which seems a sensible step up from light green. I don't see the logic for the physically smaller boys to go up to blue (or brown which was the recommended M16A course at Bigland)
If the M16As have to do something long and heroic how about making M16B a green course. Keeping it light green seems daft as most M16s doing age related courses will have worked through the other grades.
Not sure how BOF decided the M16 set up was sensible. At the 6 days he'll be running M21V.

[awk]

Not sure how BOF decided the M16 set up was sensible. At the 6 days he'll be running M21V.

It isn't, and never has been. It's one of the issues we tried to tackle when bringing the JM/JW classes in before the last event restructuring.
The 'reason' is that a series of steps apparently need to be built up to enable the top end achieve M21L type distances by the time they reach first year of that class, which is why there isn't the same issue with the women. The jumps through M16-18-20 have thus always been large.

Of course, a few will be fine with this progression, and some young M21s are ready for the longer course (just look at the new intake for the WOC team this year). However, many won't, and will need some time (years) as an M21 to prepare safely for those distances.

So, whilst in the broader context, it has a negative impact on numbers, on burnouts, on injuries etc etc, it's why we have a system that has only ever suited a small minority - those who are early maturers - and has helped contribute to the state we are now in, just because "they have to be able to run 90+ minutes when M21".

[andypat]

However I'm sorry to have to repeat my Auchingarrich complaint (from SOL1 in April 2009) about a friend’s miserable time on the Long Orange course. On that occasion the planner helpfully entered into a forum discussion of the lower TD courses - with a widespread feeling amongst contributors that the Long Orange wasn’t appropriate for adult novices.

This weekend I persuaded my friend to have another shot - assuming the lessons had been learnt. But again the Long Orange was too hard. There was a sequence of controls (3/4/5/6) in the dense forest and other legs without collecting features. Comparatively few legs gave an opportunity to stretch out and run!

I realise that the terrain here is mostly tough with few linear features - and that Long Orange is always a problem for planners as it is outside the normal difficulty/distance pattern. But Saturday's results speak for themselves - entrants averaged over 2 hours to get round and almost half did not complete.

Long Orange should be great way to lure in runners wanting a challenge - but this sort of experience can put people off orienteering for life.

Tend to agree. Does Long Orange have an identity crisis? Having looked at the orange course (my wifes) I thought a couple of controls (3 and 4) were toughish for the grade given the terrain, but OK. The Long Orange though doesn't look like a course designed to attract adult novice runners ( 4-5, 7-8 and 8-9 look TD4/5 to me ). But then again when we've put on Red courses in the past (mainly on paths) we've had next to no interest.

[graeme]

But then again when we've put on Red courses in the past (mainly on paths) we've had next to no interest.

I ran about three red courses, ever. Without which I likely wouldn't have done the thousand or so technical ones since. Think of it as an investment.

[frog]

For adult novice runners maybe a long yellow would be a more appropriate course, many runners not being used to doing other than basic navigating.
Auchingarrich isn't really suitable for a long yellow course. maybe we should only do courses for adult novices at venues that are suitable for them and not bother about them fitting a particular colour and just do a course we think runners who want a bit of a navigational challenge will enjoy (keeping it simple) and plug that course to running clubs.

re the M16/18 etc I think it's a shame the system is geared at the elite orienteers as very few of us end up in that bracket. Yes we need to produce orienteers capable of running elite distances but we don't want to alienate teenagers who don't want to do alot of running training who have other hobbies/ exams/ are never going to be good enough to be elite anyway but still enjoy orienteering and in the future could help organise events etc if we don't make them feel there isn't a space for them.
I'd feel happier if M16 was more greenish in distance with the good M16s maybe encouraged to run up to M18 which could maybe be similarly scaled down a bit, with the good M18s running up to M20 etc. By the time you get to M21 there is more flexibility with 4 distances to choose from but the slower/ less keen teenagers have maybe given up by then. There was only 1 M21V entry in the Scottish champs.

[andypat]

But then again when we've put on Red courses in the past (mainly on paths) we've had next to no interest.

I ran about three red courses, ever. Without which I likely wouldn't have done the thousand or so technical ones since. Think of it as an investment.

Graeme - I cant believe you were ever a novice!

Frog made my point a bit better - if you are a genuine adult novice then yellow probably is about the right standard. If you can do orange, you actually can navigate a bit already. Trouble is yellow is a bit embarrassing for an adult. Maybe a long yellow is a good idea? Possibly peach....

[Roger]

Graeme was a novice alongside me. We were both road-runners (he rather quicker than me) so took some wonderful routes to avoid long hacks cross-country with the inevitable 15 minutes' relocation. I'd also done some hill-walking, with my parents drumming in the dangers of going off the paths, and some Alpine mountaineering.

At my first event (aged 21) I ran white followed by orange. What hooked me was going off the paths to find things. White was an exercise in keeping the map set and my car-keys secured to my person, but orange was actually an adventure. I wouldn't have got that on a long yellow course.

[DJM]

frog wrote:Not sure how BOF decided the M16 set up was sensible.

awk: It isn't, and never has been ...

Not quite sure that it's down to BOF here ... Had the event been the British and not the Scottish Championships, M16A would have been planned to have a winning time of 45 - 55 minutes, just over half of the actual winner's time in Scotland.

Is 45 - 55 mins still too long, or is it about right these days?

[andypat]

But could you actually read a map already Roger? I think we sometimes forget that some adult novices are also new to mapreading.

[AndyO]

Long Orange at TD3 should be fine for adult novices, or anyone else who fancies a bit of a run without hacking through the technical stuff, so long as it is planned at TD3 not something else. For the upcoming Culbin SOL we discussed the value of putting on the course, as not all the SOLs so far have had one. Fortunately we have some entries for the course, so no decision was necessary. I have seen red courses remain unused at several events, but provided the planner is aware enough to use control sites that are also used for other courses with only a few unique to the course, it should be little extra work, and I completely agree with Graeme that it is an investment.

Also a thought to those not happy at course lengths for M16 and M18: course lengths are shown in details when entering a race, so if you think it is too far for you, no worries, enter a shorter course. No-one will point the finger, and as long as you enjoy the experience, who cares?

[graeme]

Yes, I was a novice once, sometimes think I still am. I was never a junior...

Otherwise, what Roger said. Maybe we should be offering the white + orange deal that got us both started.

[frog]

I think 45min winning time seems sensible for 14-16 year olds.
I did white then yellow at my first event that was in a park in New Zealand.
I then decided orienteering was easy and did a green in the next event in a forest and made a 180 deg error at the start and took 30 minutes to find my first control. I did complete the course though.