Elite course winning times

[Rich R]

Having spoke to one of the course planners for the JK long it has obviously been overlooked as to why it was so short. originally the course for M21E was supposed to be around 15km and would start in the wooded area on the southern edge of the map. Red Kite nesting in the area meant a loss of access only 6 weeks ago - obviously this meant a big replan. Only two weeks ago a further area containing two controls were lost - understandable that the courses were on the short side I think.

[rocky]

In general I'd rather run a good course that has a slightly short winning time than a contrived full length course that is squashed into an area that can't really support it.

I'm not sure how much the extra 10-20% we are talking about would change the results but I suspect not much.

[greywolf]

Agree entirely about not having contrived courses...but that's really about selecting the right areas in the first place (and that's why I'd remove the requirement for a 90 minute M21E race from Area Champs)

It's true that full length courses wouldn't make a huge difference to the results - there's only a small cadre of elite runners capable of winning these anyway, but I think it would have some impact:

Hector's attackpoint log "I knew that I'd only start to tire around 80mins at my hard pace in this terrain" suggests that he felt the short course was definitely in his favour. Brilliant run whatever the course length mind.

I once planned a race to IOF length (90-100 mins) which had a 97 min winning time, afterwards several of the (very good elite) finishers admitted they had blown up in the last 20% of the course - they weren't used to racing for that length of time

[EddieH]

Greywolf wrote "I once planned a race to IOF length (90-100 mins) which had a 97 min winning time, afterwards several of the (very good elite) finishers admitted they had blown up in the last 20% of the course - they weren't used to racing for that length of time"

Precisely. I have never begun to understand how British runners expect to perform in the WOC long when their major races are nearly always too short. That extra small percentage is bound to make a huge difference.

At least our top women have the option to run up.

[harry]

I'm not sure Hector would have meant from that quote that the short course was in his favour, I'd take that quote to mean that he had predicted the course would be short and based a pacing strategy on that.

Come and race in Norway if you want WOC length courses. Last year we had a Norwegian Cup race 1 month / 5 weeks out from WOC which was longer and tougher with more climb than the WOC long final. It was their selection race and the Men's course was one of the most brutal courses I have ever seen!! The Swedes used specially shortened versions!! It also somehow turned out to be much more "relevant" for Trondheim than the WOC final itself! but it didn't have sweltering 25 degree heat (/pleasant coolness depending on your native summer conditions..)

[binman]

Red Kite nesting in the area meant a loss of access only 6 weeks ago - obviously this meant a big replan.

That'll be the Red Kite I saw hunting about 25 metres away in the 'mere-mortals' pre-start area then. Didn't seem remotely bothered by the 100+ orienteers within a 100m.

[EddieH]

There is a big difference between a generally unfearing bird out and about and the same bird near its nest site. Ironically the latter seems to have more to do with how many people generally go near than what the species actually is, e.g. peregrines nest happily on city buidlings, but in remote cliff sites are easily disturbed.

[Ravinous]

Well done to the BOC Winners. They were best on the course given them.

However, again, the race was too short. It didnt take a genius to work out this race (M21E) would not make the 90 - 100 minute WRE Long race guidelines. Maybe it was stated in the Final Details that it would be short? Had Hubmann/Merz/Fraser?? etc. turned up we would have had a sub 80 minute winning time for sure. Maybe Oli was aiming for an 85 UK elite winning time, sub 80 World Class winning time?
But the question needs to be posed, why are we continually under selling our elites. What are we protecting them from? How can we expect them to be prepared for Lundanes winning in 97 mins? Can they push for 2 hours or racing?
Sounded like again, as at the JK, a map exchange in the finish arena and another 2km loop (3km at JK) was what was needed. This is what happens at WOC. It might well be contrived, but happens quite often at FIN, NOG, SWE elite Long races, and at as I say, at WOC - which is surely what we should be aspiring to prepare our Elites for.

[awk]

the 90 - 100 minute WRE Long race guidelines.

I've tried to find the guidelines that state this, but can only find those for WOC. Can anybody point out where they are please?

[Scott]

Appendix 6 of the IOF Foot-O Rules. Lest there be any doubt over whether this applies, the WRE Guidelines helpfully state that WREs: "shall provide one men's race and one women's race; these are normally of Long, Middle or Sprint length, defined in accordance with the IOF Competition Rules, Appendix 6. For example, a Long WRE course shall have a winning time of 70 – 80 minutes for women and 90 – 100 minutes for men, and a map scale of 1:15000 also."

[ba-ba]

Elite was short, everyone else was long.
Oli and Jenny had to fight for 14.4km - others thought it was too long!
Answer: change the course guidelines so elite do an extra 5/10% than the other courses.

When it comes to planning a 21E course I think that Oli and Jenny are two of the most qualified in the country.

[Gross]

When it comes to planning a 21E course I think that Oli and Jenny are two of the most qualified in the country.

based on????? you already indicated that elite was short......

[greywolf]

Elite was short, everyone else was long.

How do you work that out? M40L through to M75L were all within their respective EWT ranges. W40L, 50L, 60L were all within range, W55L and 65L were marginally long, but W45L was short (or Hazel was very quick). Only in the supersupervets were the winning times substantially longer than the ranges in the guidelines

Oli and Jenny had to fight for 14.4km - others thought it was too long!

well then the "others" should hang their heads - 14.4 always looked suspiciously short, especially given the extra 5 - 10% needed for a WRE

[awk]

I am so glad I don't run elite. It seems that all anybody seems to care about is if it's long enough. Yes, I know it was meant to be 90-100 if it was a WRE, and all the other bits about preparing for world championships etc., but I would still much rather hear whether the elite thought it was a good course or not.

Ba-ba: I don't know about the course you were running, but ours (M50L) was pretty much spot on - and it was a really good one too, with loads of variety.

Gross: based on elite experience I suspect.

[graeme]

Brilliant performance by Doug. Really nice to see him and Hector coming through to win the domestic trophies. Short? well maybe, but I'd like to see anyone run sub-90 off an 11am start time.

I am so glad I don't run elite.

I'm so glad I run elite. 129mins felt like a proper challenge with the control a sensible distance apart. How could anyone not want to do the National Championship in their favourite sport?

Yes, I know I'm still trading on the courses being too short and it'll catch up to me some day. And I promised to quit once we had a champion who wasn't born first time I ran it... but the Lakes look mighty tempting next year. We'll see