Who is the champion?

[keever]

Do people not feel embarrassed going up to collect a trophy when they know they've been beaten by a better orienteer who happened to enter an older age class? I know I would.

Give the prizes to those who deserve them.

Surely we only have all these age classes because as you get older you can't reasonably be expected to compete with people younger than you (opposite for juniors obviously). If you still can you shouldn't be punished for it.

I think the same goes if men's and women's courses are combined. If a woman beats the men she should also get the mens prize.

[keever]

Basically what awk and greywolf said.

[graeme]

Not sure if the bigger question Graeme's asking is how many separate age classes should there be at these sort of competitions.

Not really.
It is a live question though: I think that the Scottish sprints have now got big enough to merit 5-year age classes. In most classes you have to beat people to win and only two people were quick enough to "win" a younger class.
On the other hand, I still think of it as a "sprint race with age group prizes" rather than an "age group sprint". (The latter would require many more courses to hit a 12-15 minute winning times).

[NeilC]

A couple of minor complications

i) You won't always know when you enter which other classes you will be up against. An M45 with aspirations to win M35 (say) may still have to decide which one to prioritise. Unless of course everyone runs the same course.

ii) At the British Sprints the age classes go off in blocks. If a heavy sleet shower appears as the 50s finish and during the 45s race then the probability of a 50 winning increases. Yes I know that this could happen at any event, and is built into the elite seeding algorithm, but here it could represent an institutional bias towards a particular age class.

[andypat]

To anybody who says "nobody" for W50, would you say the same if the three age groups in question were W21, W35 and W40?

Kind of ducking the question there arent you big man? Any reason for that?

I see what you are getting at, but I think thats too artifical a situation as you just wouldnt get noone in the W21 class. If you are getting noone in W21 then I think you need to rethink your competition!

I think NeilC made my point for me, but in Graeme's example if you dont specify age classes beforehand then effectively its the planner who decides who wins by deciding on how many courses to plan and who to run on the same course. That cant be right! You could in theory have a planner who's wife or husband runs M/W55 but gets regularly beaten in this event by an M/W 60. Solution. Easy - planner puts M/W 60 on a different course! Hello trophy!

(why was Dave R d'qd?)

Dave R noted on here that he DQ'd himself having realised he had transgressed the ISSOM rules. He wasnt the only one who did so - a sporting gesture nonetheless. Mind you - he is rubbish at Urban anyhow!!

[Mrs H]

(why was Dave R d'qd?)

Dave R noted on here that he DQ'd himself having realised he had transgressed the ISSOM rules. He wasnt the only one who did so - a sporting gesture nonetheless. Mind you - he is rubbish at Urban anyhow!!

I take this opportunity to repeat my suggestion of the option of "withdrawn" (WD) on the results to denote someone who does just that - an honourable status for someone who subsequently realises an honest mistake as opposed to someone who genuinely mispunched (MP) or someone who was caught cheating (DQ).

Then we'd all know what was what and I would confidently predict a dramatic fall in the number of people cheating

[greywolf]

only two people were quick enough to "win" a younger class.

plus Rona winning "up"

The latter would require many more courses to hit a 12-15 minute winning times

first the planners have to set courses with 12-15 minute winning times for the fastest classes
http://www.rstrain.ndtilda.co.uk/result ... 16-50.html
http://www.rstrain.ndtilda.co.uk/result ... 2._40.html

[andypat]

http://www.rstrain.ndtilda.co.uk/results_11/ssc/m21.html

Help if you use this years results though.....

[greywolf]

yes, this year the fastest 4 on one course were sub 15 mins, just as last year the fastest 1 (Pippa) on 1 course was sub 15 mins. So in the 2 years of the current format 2 of the 5 (adult) courses have been won in < 15 mins.

[frog]

Have got to give Graeme 10/10 for persistence on this one.

[JK]

I have seen this dilemma plenty of times before, sometimes the rules say one thing some times another. Here are a few examples of this I have encountered over many years. [all long ago since my days of prizes appear to be over now I do Trail-O]

KIMM/OMM: A Mixed team finish high up and get both their position in the top 8 and the 1st Mixed.

Capricorn: In my "youth" I finished 4th and got 3rd prize since a Vet had beaten me (a Mr Hemstead if memory serves). Of course this was slightly complicated by the fact that 2nd place prize was better than 1st Vet so he go that and I ended up with 1st Vet prize as a 30 y/o.

Swiss mountain races: you enter a category ... full stop. So I have a nice 3rd placed grappa glass for when I ended up 7th across the line (3 Vets and an SV in front).

Fell races: The Civil Service one I organised used to say "1 prize only", but then you need to specify what happens if a Vet is 3rd, does he get 1st Vet or 3rd and more importantly is it the 4th overall or 2nd Vet who gets other prize.

In one Northern Nights I was top M40 on the same course (but different entered class) as M21 and M35, beating the top M21, but not the top 25. Prizes were for entered class.

So hard to make any broad guidelines, but I reckon if you enter separate classes then prizes stay separate. This was usually the case in the past with O. If M35 and M40 share the same course then you don't expect a top M40 to take the M35 prize if faster. FRs are trickier since it is [nearly] always one course and top M40 can go to an M50, etc.

You pays your money and you takes your choice!

[medanum6298]

Well my views on running up are well documented and tend to be disputed only by better orienteers!

I think you run your age class, or open (ie M/W 21) and if you run up or down in any other age class you are non-comp. End of story.

I think that means I agree with Mrs H.

I also think so.

[EddieH]

Even in hill races it can go either way depending on the organiser's choice. I once won a nice £40 at the Creag Dubh race as 1st Veteran. In fact the first 3 finishers were all vets but were given the more valuable 1st, 2nd and 3rd prizes. There were then about 4 seniors in 4th to 7th who got nothing. I as 4th vet picked up the 1st vet prize.

I wasn't complaining Mind you I wasn't expecting it and would have been perfectly happy not to have got anything.

I still like the idea of not peresenting double prizes.

The only orienteering trophy I got that I really felt awkward about was when as an M35 I entered M21 in the Midland nights, I was beaten by Paul Graetz (M40 but entered M35) and Alun Powell (M18 but entered M20). I was awarded the M21 trophy

I used to organise a hill race weekend with numerous low value prizes. I used to look down the results and call people up in a general order that I thought merited their performance for them to choose from what was on offer. Very subjective but no-one got 2 prizes. People seemed to like it. It was different and that was what happened there. In O championships I think we enter a class and that is what we are eligible for.
The E Open class is a little different - in long events the course is always different so no problem arises.

[graeme]

Even in hill races it can go either way

Coming from a running background, I'm used to this part of the debate and can understand arguments. Similarly I understand greywolf's argument that tiny fields shouldn't have prizes at all. And I've had both the embarrassment of either picking up a prize despite being beaten, and the guilty feeling of going home laden with multiple trophies.

These things I can understand, without necessarily agreeing.

But only in orienteering have I ever seen this attitude that even though there are many eligible people, we wont give the prize to anyone, and we'll hide behind some form-filling argument to justify it. It just seems so astonishingly mean-spirited that I stiil don't understand it.

[frog]

In the Scottish sprints though it wasn't mean spiritedness that meant no-one got the medal but the fact that as organiser I didn't spot there were no entries for W50 until Bill read it out. I hastily skimmed through the results to check they were generally OK, but with about 30 medals to give out and us only having booked the hall for a limited period I didn't scrutinise them that thoroughly.
I had said before the event that people were eligible for the class they entered. I think when presenting 30 medals in a rush it's much easier to just print out the results from the computer and use the class people entered. Ignoring the class people entered and using a "W50 medal goes to the first woman over 50 even if she's 60" requires more time spent scrutinising the results, and then half the people have gone home.
This was the first year the SOA decided that we should have age champions for every class for the sprint champs anyway.
I think we should go for the easiest way of finding a winner and would stick with awarding a prize to you depending on which class you entered, apart from M/W21 which should be seen as "open".
We aren't talking expensive prizes in orienteering anyway.