Oh no not another British Sprints format thread

[Marco Polo]

In 2005, the Elite Sprint's had an A-final of 18, B-final of 18, and C-final of everyone else (plus a D-final for some Belgian guests, but that's irrelevant).

Results for the event can be seen here: http://www.emituk.com/results/2005/20050409_BritSprint/

Back then the UK Cup scoring was 50,47,45,43,41,40... with only 45 scorers.

With that format, a lot more people were fighting for either the A or B final to guarantee themselves good points. There were still over 60 people on the Men's C-final, but this was just a BEOC, so there were not vets courses pulling numbers away.

I certainly think have space limited A and B finals means there is more to play for in the heats, but perhaps this only really works when there are a lot of numbers.

This weekend there were many courses where there was a low number of competitors. I'm not really sure what can be done then, most sporting qualification systems have been designed around having more people in the heats than are required for the final.

In athletics there is certainly a number of runners that must be exceeded to have heats in 5000 and 10000, if it's less then they just run the final. This doesn't quite apply as in orienteering we have seeding of our "time-trial" starts.

Another comment on the 2005 final, there were either no 35s, 45s and 55s or everyone's age was given in 10 year age bands. That would obviously be a way of raising the pool of people in each heat (but I can see that it won't please everyone and has it's flaws.)

[229]

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[andy]

I like the 'separate' champs idea, one BEOC with everyone in the same class and one age-class champs. Everyone in the same pot where there are ABCDEFG etc finals to get into really made it exciting and the heat definitely mattered for all. I was at both Warwick and the NOC one, both fantastic events.

[seabird]

I agree that the one class format is the most exciting.

Is the way to make age class sprints exciting in both legs to ensure that the final race is a chasing start?

[roadrunner]

All veteran age categories are arbitrary and unfair. Having them every 5 years makes sense, and it looks like a sensible system. But being born on 31st Dec vs 1st Jan can mean two people separated by 1 day are running against 2 other runners separated by 10 years.

We all age differently anyway, so it really doesn't matter what the boundaries are as we all know who are peers are that we actually compete against.

I was surprised by the number of age-classes at the BEOC sprint.

Why just veterans? It's surely just as true (perhaps even more so) for juniors. I must admit that I agree with you on the number of age categories; I think it should be such as to provide good competition. No disrespect to the competitors concerned, but is there much satisfaction in winning an age category where you're the only competitor?

[andy]

Is the way to make age class sprints exciting in both legs to ensure that the final race is a chasing start?

I personally don't like the chasing start for a championship event, it turns into more of an XC race than anything else (although I guess IOF disagree with me on this one!). They make a very good gimmicky race now and again though..

[229]

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[graeme]

but is there much satisfaction in winning an age category where you're the only competitor?

Depends on the age class. Elite being now beyond me, M90 is the age class I'd most like to win, regardless of who else was there.

[King Penguin]

That's my plan - the only way I will win is to outlive the opposition !

[AndyC]

but is there much satisfaction in winning an age category where you're the only competitor?

Depends on the age class. Elite being now beyond me, M90 is the age class I'd most like to win, regardless of who else was there.

You're aiming too low -what is wrong with winning M190 ?

[DJM]

229 wrote
I was surprised by the number of age-classes at the BEOC sprint.

It was a deliberate decision to structure the BOC Sprint to have the same age class structure as the other BOC disciplines. On the basis that you plan for success rather than for failure, the assumption was made that the British Sprint Championships would become more popular in the future (as has happened with the JK Sprint), so that "thin" age classes would have bigger fields and become much more competitive.

[awk]

Even at the JK - the numbers in the bigger classes are around 115 or so - so possibly A, B and C. Merging into ten year bands would therefore be perfectly possible, and would give a much more interesting, competitive structure. Depends how tied one is to the 5-year bands. After all, we use 10 year bands for the relays. (That is, of course, bearing in mind that my view as to what we should be doing is somewhat different, but too well known to repeat!).

I enjoy the chasing sprint format, but for a national championship, the reverse start works better IMO.

[IanD]

I like 5-year age bands myself.

I take the point that some may feel their class is too small and lose interest as a result.
But as a counter-example, I took little interest in the Nopesport Urban League while I was an M50 competing against M40's. Now that I am M55, I have much more interest in it and will be doing more events.

I think the solution which comes closest to keeping everybody happy is to have 5-year age bands but combine many classes, especially the smaller ones, onto the same course. Thus those who want to measure themselves against a wider group can do so, although they may have to look at more than one table of the results.

[pete.owens]

So would this work to get more of the character of the old elite sprints while maintaining age class championships?

Heats:-
All M heats equivalent and all W heats (like the old elite champs) with every age class seeded and shared equally between the heats.

Elite A finals:-
Fastest N from each heat of whatever age qualify for the elite finals.

Age class A finals:-
Fastest N of each age class from each heat qualify for age class final. (just like last weekend)

Ageless B,C,D,E finals:-
Everybody else placed in finals according to position in heat (as was the case at old elite champs)

Advantages:
Top 16s & 35s would not need to decide in advance whether to enter elite or age class.
You could have A finals for 18s & 20s
Heats are meaningful races for those unlikely to reach an A final.

[awk]

So what would happen if an M40 qualified for the elite final? Either they go into the elite final, in which case the M40 is simply for the leftovers, or they go into the M40 final, in which case the elite final is weakened and they are deprived of their place.

IanD - I agree there's a balance between age affecting and sufficient competition. I think 10 year bands would suffice. No doubt there would be a slight fall off at the top end of the age range, but there's always people who show that this rule isn't fixed. (This is something where the old BOF age classes might have worked better - the age range of each class diminishing slightly as one moved up the ladder).