southern champs

[Mrs H]

Is it me - or are those courses loooooooong. Mr H is threatening not to go or to drop down to short because he doesn't think he'll be able to do a week's work after 10.3k and 390m climb as he doesn't exactly spend his week sitting down

[Arnold]

They seem pretty normal for a national event - the winning times are supposed to be 10% over badge events as far as I remember.

Plus the forest will be pretty fast I'm sure.

As I've recently found it's not the courses that are getting longer it's my legs that are getting slower...

[distracted]

Maybe, but it's an intended winning time of 60-70 minutes for that course, and it is a very fast area (hence 17k for the elite) with very little green on the map and nothing much more than leaf litter on the ground for the most part. It's only the hills that'll slow you down...

From what I remember, most of the forest does look as open as the photos on the TVOC website seem to indicate, and geograph also shows it looking pretty good even in the summer:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/SU7686

[IanD]

They do seem quite long, but remember that the Area Championship rules specify winning times which might be regarded as long. My M55L course, for example, should be won in 60-70 minutes - 9.1km is likely to be necessary to push Colin Dickson over the hour. (No reference to Badge events in the current edition of the rules).

I notice from the Final Details that they are using a new map symbol, "un-crossable fence", but they aren't telling us what it is and there will be no legend on the map!

(OK, I'm being pedantic, I'm sure they'll use the "high fence" symbol, and since they say the pheasant pens surrounded by the "uncrossable" fence will be marked out-of-bounds, no-one should get confused.)

[Mrs H]

Well perhaps but the other area champs we have been to this year he has run 8.1 and 375m and 6.2 and 290m - where does the difference lie?

[greywolf]

Well perhaps but the other area champs we have been to this year he has run 8.1 and 375m and 6.2 and 290m - where does the difference lie?

The Midlands were too short, and the Welsh was a level B event with a different set of (shorter) course specifications

[Muddy Boots]

The Southern is a level A event which under the 'Competition Rules I' bases all course lengths from a table of course length ratios, adjusted for height climb, based upon a M21E winning time of 85-95 minutes.

The Midland was a Level A event and the M21E course was won in 83 mins. 3 seconds. Greywolf says too short even though it was less than 2 minutes out.

The Area Championships for Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland can opt to be at Level B standard where the table of course ratios is based upon a M21 winning time of 67 minutes.

Consequently all courses for Level B events will always be shorter than those planned at Level A. Like it or not Planners and Controllers are required to work within the BO Rules and Guidelines appropriate for the event.

[greywolf]

the 'Competition Rules I' bases all course lengths from a table of course length ratios, adjusted for height climb, based upon a M21E winning time of 85-95 minutes. The Midland ... M21E course was won in 83 mins. 3 seconds. Greywolf says too short even though it was less than 2 minutes out.

So you might think a sensible planner would aim for 90 mins and regard 85-95 as an acceptable margin of error?....and with all due respect to the winner, I suspect that had the international elite done their patriotic duty in Norfolk rather than going off sunning themselves in Portugal or wherever in their subsidised shoes </sarcasm> the actual winning time might have been significantly quicker... 14k in very runnable terrain is never going to be far enough for a full length elite race.*

And as well as giving other (adjusted) course lengths as ratios from M21E, the guidelines indicate likely winning times for various L and A classes: M45, M50, M55 & M60 are supposed to be 60 - 70 mins and were all won in c. 54 - 56 mins...

* whether or not these races need full length M21E courses is an entirely different question

[mharky]

Here are the JK 2003 results from Hambleden, for a good indication of course length and winning times

http://www.butlercole.plus.com/mn/jk2003/day1/index.htm

* Middle distance for elites

[Steve]

You can also find the 2005 results on the EMIT UK website under "Results". These were the results driving the course lengths, but lengths were checked back against the 2003 results for guidance.

The provisional course lengths have been on the TVOC website since entries opened.

[Muddy Boots]

And as well as giving other (adjusted) course lengths as ratios from M21E, the guidelines indicate likely winning times for various L and A classes: M45, M50, M55 & M60 are supposed to be 60 - 70 mins and were all won in c. 54 - 56 mins...

The rules clearly state that winning times and course length ratios are for guidance only and are not therefore mandatory on the Planner and Controller.

[greywolf]

The rules clearly state that winning times and course length ratios are for guidance only and are not therefore mandatory on the Planner and Controller.

Yes, Planner & Controller are at liberty to make it up as they go along...although it's surprising how often they claim (before the event) that the course lengths will be "as per BOF guidelines"

But Mrs H's question was why the courses at the Southern Champs seem to be longer than the other area champs...
Obviously i was completely wrong to answer "The Midlands were too short" and I should have instead said "Courses at the very enjoyable Midland Champs were brilliantly planned and controlled, with event officials exercising their discretion as permitted in the Rules to vary the winning times and course length ratios contained therein (which are for guidance only). On the other hand event officials at the forthcoming Southern Champs appear to have attempted to follow the guidance on winning times / course ratios and therefore these courses may well be longer than those at the Midland Champs..."

[Neil M40]

You can also find the 2005 results on the EMIT UK website under "Results". These were the results driving the course lengths, but lengths were checked back against the 2003 results for guidance.

The 2005 race was a mass start for the elite. You would expect the speed to be higher in a mass start race - generally speaking people run quicker in packs. I am sure you have taken this into account.

[graeme]

This will be short, but closer to the correct winning time than any other elite championship. Even "independent" novices and never-elite M40s were running 14k at 5:19mins/km last time. If those nopeing primadonnas can't go faster than that the commentary team is going to have a *lot* of fun!

[Urban]

The course lengths do seem a bit long given the climb. The course lengths for young male juniors in particular seem rather demanding.
M14 5.8km 175m/ M16 9.1km 280m, equivalent to 7.55km and 11.9km.
Quite a few of these boys will still only be 12 in M14 and, 14 in M16 as they have their 13th and 15th birthdays are as late as December this year. These distances are arguably too far, too young.
Children are not permitted to run anything like these distances at athletics, road races, cross country etc.
Yes they can run B class but.........should we be driven by ratios from M21E when we're looking after the well being of juniors.
Just wondering, as alluded to in another thread, the big step ups in distances especially for the boys creates a drop off from mass participation because it becomes a slog not a joy.